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  #81  
Old 13.03.2012, 18:58
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Old 13.03.2012, 19:29
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

What's I find sad is that people see fit to judge some poor sod who lost it on active service, whilst they have probably have never done anything riskier than open a coke can in their uni' lecture, but are well read, have an extensive PS3 library, and seen heaps of TV!

What this soldier did, regardless of his nationality, uniform, colour, or creed was heinous, and he deserves the punishment that will be duly dished out to him. Any right minded person should be horrified that this has happened , and feel sad for the loss of loved ones suffered by the families. However, lets walk a mile in his boots, and look at what drove him to commit the terrible act in the 1st place, and I hope the powers that be take steps to try to ensure it never happens again.
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  #83  
Old 13.03.2012, 19:39
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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I`m English,i love the UK/GB and its people,i am not anti British and i`ll ask you not to accuse me of being anti my own people.
Not to put /too/ fine a point on it, given your English usage, I'm reasonably sure English isn't your mother tongue (that or the schools really have gone to hell) and you're probably young, too, as those of us old enough to remember being taught world history, particularly the Brits, probably remember how the modern Middle East came to be what it is today (and some of the atrocities back then, too). Look up T. E. Lawrence. It didn't become what it is today just because the US sent troops there....

If you want an American to listen to your criticism, you'll need to stop painting with such a broad brush all the things that you think you understand by watching from a great distance via a usually not wholly informed media. Especially expats, we're a bit weary of the usual drone of being told how terrible our country is by the same people who are happy to take (or have in the past) our financial assistance, military assistance or to sell products in the US so if you approach the dialogue as a debate instead of a bitter jeremiad you're likely to get a more receptive audience. Just a thought....
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  #84  
Old 13.03.2012, 19:49
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

[QUOTE=poptart;1512363]Not to put /too/ fine a point on it, given your English usage, I'm reasonably sure English isn't your mother tongue (that or the schools really have gone to hell) QUOTE]
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  #85  
Old 13.03.2012, 20:16
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

Irrelevant to the debate anyway.

I am trying to imagine the reaction if the same had the other way round - if an Afghan had walked into army barracks and killed 17 soldiers at point blank. Or if an Afghan who has lost his family during the war had got to the US, and walked into a housing estate, killing children and families. Would most say that his action was 'understandable' as he had lost the plot due to the things he had experienced back home during the war? Somehow I don't think so, somehow many and perhaps the majority of Americans would expect him to hang (I do not btw).

I can never ever understand when people say 'well you daren't say this is dreadful as somebody else somewhere else has done something even more dreadful once- as it sounds as though it is downgrading the dreadfulness and bordering on excusing it. I am glad to see that Obama and the most Senior Army staff are totally condemning the actions of this man and call it what it is 'a massacre'. Whatever this guy has been through, and the reasons why he 'lost it' - nobody can excuse what he did. That does not make anyone anti-American.

One of the secondary dreadful consequence of this act- is that it puts every soldier from the UK and well as the US serving in Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world, at great risk of retaliatory attack. And all of us, our children and grand-children- as this is the dreadful stuff that feeds terrorism. Obama and Senior Army personnel understand that, and it does not make them anti-American.
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Old 13.03.2012, 20:23
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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It is46 years old trucker
Nah, I can tell the difference between redneck and non-native.

One time, on a Finnish forum, there was one guy who was so fluent in English everyone thought he was English...and then one day he made a very subtle mistake. I messaged him and told him the gig was up and suggested we meet for a beer. He was Finnish, very fluent and had spent some time on cruise ships. We had a good laugh, got drunk and are still friends.

It wasn't an insult, just an observation that I think there's more to the background than a UK nationality. Even I have a UK passport, and speak well enough that most don't question, but I didn't grow up there and even though I get a lot of the pop culture...I never say I'm English, just that my father was. Identity is a funny thing, rarely tied to passport or language.
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Old 13.03.2012, 20:31
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Irrelevant to the debate anyway.

I am trying to imagine the reaction if the same had the other way round - if an Afghan had walked into army barracks and killed 17 soldiers at point blank. Or if an Afghan who has lost his family during the war had got to the US, and walked into a housing estate, killing children and families. Would most say that his action was 'understandable' as he had lost the plot due to the things he had experienced back home during the war? Somehow I don't think so, somehow many and perhaps the majority of Americans would expect him to hang (I do not btw).

I can never ever understand when people say 'well you daren't say this is dreadful as somebody else somewhere else has done something even more dreadful once- as it sounds as though it is downgrading the dreadfulness and bordering on excusing it. I am glad to see that Obama and the most Senior Army staff are totally condemning the actions of this man and call it what it is 'a massacre'. Whatever this guy has been through, and the reasons why he 'lost it' - nobody can excuse what he did. That does not make anyone anti-American.

One of the secondary dreadful consequence of this act- is that it puts every soldier from the UK and well as the US serving in Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world, at great risk of retaliatory attack. And all of us, our children and grand-children- as this is the dreadful stuff that feeds terrorism. Obama and Senior Army personnel understand that, and it does not make them anti-American.
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Old 13.03.2012, 20:33
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Irrelevant to the debate anyway.

I am trying to imagine the reaction if the same had the other way round - if an Afghan had walked into army barracks and killed 17 soldiers at point blank. Or if an Afghan who has lost his family during the war had got to the US, and walked into a housing estate, killing children and families. Would most say that his action was 'understandable' as he had lost the plot due to the things he had experienced back home during the war? Somehow I don't think so, somehow many and perhaps the majority of Americans would expect him to hang (I do not btw).
I'm quite sure that peaceful Afghanis would be as appalled as most of us Americans are on the other side of the coin. I don't' think anyone said it was understandable, but in times like this, we try to find reason in such insanity as we cannot imagine being in a combat zone like that. We can only hope that the soldier lost his marbles just as Afghanis would hope the same if one of theirs started shooting women and children. As for shooting soldiers...well, they sign up for that and, so the shooting of soldiers by non-military sorts happens more than we hear about most likely.

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I can never ever understand when people say 'well you daren't say this is dreadful as somebody else somewhere else has done something even more dreadful once- as it sounds as though it is downgrading the dreadfulness and bordering on excusing it. I am glad to see that Obama and the most Senior Army staff are totally condemning the actions of this man and call it what it is 'a massacre'. Whatever this guy has been through, and the reasons why he 'lost it' - nobody can excuse what he did. That does not make anyone anti-American.

One of the secondary dreadful consequence of this act- is that it puts every soldier from the UK and well as the US serving in Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world, at great risk of retaliatory attack. And all of us, our children and grand-children- as this is the dreadful stuff that feeds terrorism. Obama and Senior Army personnel understand that, and it does not make them anti-American.
Yes, already there are consequences and I'm not looking forward to flying soon as Al-queda had also issued a new threat. Nobody is excusing what he did, but we have to remember that these aren't machines, they're people, and the atrocities on the ground in a war zone, after so many years, many of these guys are being sent on too many tours due to shortages of soldiers, shortages of jobs on the civi side, that we'd be equally inhuman to ignore the toll that being in a war zone far past your freshness date can do to a person. However, I do think I read somewhere that this was his first tour...so perhaps is was less mentally fit for the job than most. What does surprise me is that his unit didn't catch on before it was too late. It's just a sad story all around. Imagine being the mother to this soldier...maybe he was the best kid ever, went off to war and then...it's awful, no matter how you slice it.
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Old 13.03.2012, 21:18
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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However, I do think I read somewhere that this was his first tour...so perhaps is was less mentally fit for the job than most. What does surprise me is that his unit didn't catch on before it was too late. It's just a sad story all around. Imagine being the mother to this soldier...maybe he was the best kid ever, went off to war and then...it's awful, no matter how you slice it.
He served three tours in Iraq
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Old 13.03.2012, 21:20
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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He served three tours in Iraq
Sorry to hear that....

Let's talk about the OP's english intstead. So, where is he originally from? Usually I start with the mistakes being the 'tell' as certain languages make predictable mistakes...I can't really tell with this one due to obviously being educated in English at some point in their life but there aren't markers making certain determinations easy, but, given the political outrage and some of the punctuation, I'm probably not too far off in guessing that there are strong ties to a country in the Middle East. What say you OP? I'm an armchair linguist with a smorgasbord of languages on my radar so..this is just curiosity for me, really.
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Old 13.03.2012, 21:35
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Sorry to hear that....

Let's talk about the OP's english intstead. So, where is he originally from? Usually I start with the mistakes being the 'tell' as certain languages make predictable mistakes...I can't really tell with this one due to obviously being educated in English at some point in their life but there aren't markers making certain determinations easy, but, given the political outrage and some of the punctuation, I'm probably not too far off in guessing that there are strong ties to a country in the Middle East. What say you OP? I'm an armchair linguist with a smorgasbord of languages on my radar so..this is just curiosity for me, really.
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Old 13.03.2012, 21:42
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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He served three tours in Iraq
didnt he sign up for it? didnt he know what he was in for? wasnt he paid for his work?

who in the world cares how many tours he had??? i am sick of this whitewashing of all the war crimes americans are committing, urinating on dead bodies yesterday, killing babies in their sleep today, and whatever tomorrow

but you guys as a people have some serious issues to work on. these sick individuals will come home soon and become the local policemen, and you're gonna have to deal with them when they pull you over for a traffic stop in the middle of nowhere

all the bashing in this thread is justified at the moment because this is topic: i.e. a heinous, subhuman, monstrous crime by one of your fellow countrymen. face it and be shamed, just like any other human would/should do so

if -God forbid- one of my countrymen does something like this tomorrow, then him, i will be ashamed, and i will advocate for the harshest penalty in the book, but your thick skinned attitude here is revolting. Can we at least agree that who ever murders babies in their sleep is evil, and must be punished accordingly?
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Old 13.03.2012, 21:55
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Can we at least agree that who ever murders babies in their sleep is evil, and must be punished accordingly?
Pretty sure that everyone in this thread agrees with you there.

Bet 10 francs you can find a way to say that the above sentence means we should give the murderer a unicorn in a bucket of rainbows.


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Old 13.03.2012, 21:57
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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didnt he sign up for it? didnt he know what he was in for? wasnt he paid for his work?

who in the world cares how many tours he had??? i am sick of this whitewashing of all the war crimes americans are committing, urinating on dead bodies yesterday, killing babies in their sleep today, and whatever tomorrow

but you guys as a people have some serious issues to work on. these sick individuals will come home soon and become the local policemen, and you're gonna have to deal with them when they pull you over for a traffic stop in the middle of nowhere

all the bashing in this thread is justified at the moment because this is topic: i.e. a heinous, subhuman, monstrous crime by one of your fellow countrymen. face it and be shamed, just like any other human would/should do so

if -God forbid- one of my countrymen does something like this tomorrow, then him, i will be ashamed, and i will advocate for the harshest penalty in the book, but your thick skinned attitude here is revolting. Can we at least agree that who ever murders babies in their sleep is evil, and must be punished accordingly?
Who said anything about 'whitewashing'? Are any of your countrymen in Afghanistan at the moment? The soldier is question is likely going to get the death penalty...is there a harsher penalty I'm not aware of? I don't think any American here said it wasn't a heinous crime, but that we're trying to understand what might have driven a trained soldier to commit such a crime. My father was a Marine and damned if I don't have respect for those who fight for an ideal with nothing but love in their hearts for their country and who would never shoot non-combatants. We rarely agreed politically, but the honor that man had always won my respect. I'm sure he would be horrified at this tragedy.
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Old 13.03.2012, 21:58
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

I am thinking of all the mothers PopTart - but especially those who have to live with this stuff day in, night out. Those who cannot be separate from war 1000s of miles away and idealise what some of the so-called heroes do. Those whose kids get blown up as collateral damage, and shot in their sleep because a soldier has 'lost it'. That does not make it anti American.

Trivialising this by discussing the finer points of the English language is wicked imho.
Another non-native English speaking Brit
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Old 13.03.2012, 21:59
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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didnt he sign up for it? didnt he know what he was in for? wasnt he paid for his work?

who in the world cares how many tours he had??? i am sick of this whitewashing of all the war crimes americans are committing, urinating on dead bodies yesterday, killing babies in their sleep today, and whatever tomorrow

but you guys as a people have some serious issues to work on. these sick individuals will come home soon and become the local policemen, and you're gonna have to deal with them when they pull you over for a traffic stop in the middle of nowhere

all the bashing in this thread is justified at the moment because this is topic: i.e. a heinous, subhuman, monstrous crime by one of your fellow countrymen. face it and be shamed, just like any other human would/should do so

if -God forbid- one of my countrymen does something like this tomorrow, then him, i will be ashamed, and i will advocate for the harshest penalty in the book, but your thick skinned attitude here is revolting. Can we at least agree that who ever murders babies in their sleep is evil, and must be punished accordingly?
That just the sort of purile rant that defeats your entire argument, and switches many off to the serious nature of what happenend. Your trivialisation of the effects of war on the people who fight them is juvenile, simple as that.

Every conflict can sight sides committing atrocities, sanctioned or otherwise and they perpetrators should be brought to justice, so enough with the US bashing. There are 2 aspects to this, the soldier and what triggered his actions, and the families and there dealing with the aftermath.

Your last 20 words, I don't think anyone dis-agrees with, the rest however.

BTW, given your obvious feelings towrds our former colonial bretheren and their military... nice user name, just sayin
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Old 13.03.2012, 22:00
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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didnt he sign up for it? didnt he know what he was in for? wasnt he paid for his work?

who in the world cares how many tours he had??? i am sick of this whitewashing of all the war crimes americans are committing, urinating on dead bodies yesterday, killing babies in their sleep today, and whatever tomorrow

but you guys as a people have some serious issues to work on. these sick individuals will come home soon and become the local policemen, and you're gonna have to deal with them when they pull you over for a traffic stop in the middle of nowhere

all the bashing in this thread is justified at the moment because this is topic: i.e. a heinous, subhuman, monstrous crime by one of your fellow countrymen. face it and be shamed, just like any other human would/should do so

if -God forbid- one of my countrymen does something like this tomorrow, then him, i will be ashamed, and i will advocate for the harshest penalty in the book, but your thick skinned attitude here is revolting. Can we at least agree that who ever murders babies in their sleep is evil, and must be punished accordingly?
Meaning whom ??
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Old 13.03.2012, 22:03
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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Who said anything about 'whitewashing'? Are any of your countrymen in Afghanistan at the moment? The soldier is question is likely going to get the death penalty...is there a harsher penalty I'm not aware of? I don't think any American here said it wasn't a heinous crime, but that we're trying to understand what might have driven a trained soldier to commit such a crime. My father was a Marine and damned if I don't have respect for those who fight for an ideal with nothing but love in their hearts for their country and who would never shoot non-combatants. We rarely agreed politically, but the honor that man had always won my respect. I'm sure he would be horrified at this tragedy.
yes, my countrymen happen to be there.

you know very well that the soldier or any other american soldier is not getting anything more than 10yrs+possibility of parole no matter what they do.

what does any of this have to do with your ex-soldier father?
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Old 13.03.2012, 22:04
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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didnt he sign up for it? didnt he know what he was in for? wasnt he paid for his work?
He did sign up for it (after 9/11, if I remember correctly) and of course he was paid for his service. However, I don't think ANY soldier can truly understand "what he was in for" until he's in the thick of things.

Recently I was talking with someone who had a long military career and was involved in patroling the no fly zone during Operation Desert Storm. To hear him tell it, the idea of combat had been purely academic up until that point (after 15 years of flying fighters) and he's just recently begun to tell friends outside of the military about some of his experiences while in the no fly zone and facing enemy aircraft--and that's been 20-ish years ago!

Multiply that combat stress by 4 tours on the ground, and I can see how someone could become mentally "cracked" by battle. Not excusing what this soldier did at all, but only saying that I'm sure he didn't understand what going to war REALLY was until he was in the middle of it.
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Old 13.03.2012, 22:06
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Re: Nato Soldier shot dead 16 civilians including children in Afghanistan

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That just the sort of purile rant that defeats your entire argument, and switches many off to the serious nature of what happenend. Your trivialisation of the effects of war on the people who fight them is juvenile, simple as that.

Every conflict can sight sides committing atrocities, sanctioned or otherwise and they perpetrators should be brought to justice, so enough with the US bashing. There are 2 aspects to this, the soldier and what triggered his actions, and the families and there dealing with the aftermath.

Your last 20 words, I don't think anyone dis-agrees with, the rest however.

BTW, given your obvious feelings towrds our former colonial bretheren and their military... nice user name, just sayin

what feelings are you talking about you smart a$$? what do you think you know about my feelings towards americans, and my relation to a fighter plane that was designed by americans and built in my own country?
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