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  #181  
Old 15.05.2012, 20:48
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Re: Missing children

My last post on this thread, where were the twins while they where in italy?? Odd choice given they had just lost a child, no?
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  #182  
Old 15.05.2012, 21:12
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Re: Missing children

I don't think anyone here were physically with the parents to be able to tell such affirmation that they didn't look for their child and left others doing it for them.

You don't know what they did every minute of the day nor what it is like to be in their shoes. To say what one would or would not do is easy, until you live it.
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  #183  
Old 15.05.2012, 21:17
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Re: Missing children

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My last post on this thread, where were the twins while they where in italy?? Odd choice given they had just lost a child, no?
It was if I remember right, weeks or even months later. And the twins were left with her parents, who live in the same village I believe - very different to leaving them with strangers abroad.

I agree, lots of things don't tie up - but the pure venom vented here is beyond me. My friends in Norfolk were asked by the Police to stay put with their twins- and NOT join the search, as they were in no fit state to do so and the twins really needed them. Nil, you are so right- none of us know (Thank goodness) how we would react in such circumstances.
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  #184  
Old 15.05.2012, 21:22
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Re: Missing children

Sorry for regurgitating this old(ish) thead, but I`ve just read thru it. Interesting.

Remember the "Dingo baby" saga in Australia?

The mother got convicted and spent years in prison.

Then the truth emerged. The baby HAD been taken by a Dingo.

Two hunters shot a Dingo and had found cloth in it`s teeth. They had kept the skull, and eventually it was proved the cloth came from the baby`s clothing. The hunters were illegal, so were afraid to own up at the time.

The mother spent her years in prison. The family was destroyed and broken up. Because public opinion and intense desire to convict someone of the crime.
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  #185  
Old 15.05.2012, 21:48
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Re: Missing children

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I don't think anyone here were physically with the parents to be able to tell such affirmation that they didn't look for their child and left others doing it for them.
They themselves said they did not search for their child. This is not stuff we are making up.


Other people including their friends, relative and other foreign tourists felt no problem searching in "a foreign country with all those scary, angry (not) locals". But whatever. That's only one aspect of their story that I find odd. There is so much more to this story.

I'm not sure I see "pure venom" anywhere on here. Just people who disagree. Just like in the real world, especially on this case. I certain have no venom or animosity. I just have my opinion of what happened based on the facts as I see them. It's tragic no matter how you look at it or what really happened.

Anyway, I think we've been around and around on this subject and I don't think we are going to solve the mystery here and now.
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  #186  
Old 18.05.2012, 12:54
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Re: Missing children

Madeleine: 'My theories on missing girl by Mark Williams-Thomas, child protection expert

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As a criminologist, former detective and authority on paedophile crimes, I have followed the Madeleine McCann case from the very beginning.
...
The most sinister of all these questions was whether Gerry and Kate McCann were involved with the disappearance of their own daughter.

In order to establish answers it is necessary to examine the police investigation.

The detailed examination of a scene plays a crucial part in any major investigation and after a critical incident like this, all police officers know it is vital to preserve the crime scene, build the foundations, complete forensics and identify possible witnesses immediately.

But I saw no evidence of this being done and it was without any doubt, the worst-preserved crime scene I have ever witnessed.

This investigation is like no other I have seen before or will hopefully ever see again.
Maddy police attacked for crime scene claim
Police made errors in Maddy McCann case
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The force in the Algarve was said to have been too slow to respond and had not taken the abduction seriously, believing that Madeleine had wandered off.
..Spanish border police...were not informed about the incident until the following morning, giving a kidnapper every opportunity to flee...

It took police 22 days to issue an e-fit of a man seen carrying a child near the McCanns' apartment. Even when the description went out, there was a discrepancy ...due to translation problems.

Strict secrecy laws prevented the police giving out any information which meant that no proper description of Madeleine was originally issued and it was left to her parents to describe what she was wearing.

The local police chief has also been charged with hitting a woman he was questioning on suspicion of killing her missing daughter.
Police on trial for torturing mother of another missing girl
Murder of Joana Cipriano
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  #187  
Old 25.05.2012, 11:12
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Re: Missing children

After reading the last post I could not avoid posting something on behalf of Joana:
I also condemn torture , but I do not know if it happened or not during the inquiry.
What I know it is true is that Joana's body was never found after her disappearance in Algarve. Originally born within a very poor family, her disappearance was announced first by her mother on the press. Her blood and hair were found inside her family's freezer as soon as the investigation started. Her mother and uncle were arrested and later confessed her unintentional killing: Joana had just arrived after shopping for some food in the nearby grocery shop, at home she witnessed an incest scene between her mother and uncle and she was hit, they said it was unintentional . Until now it was not possible to find her body ( they never confessed how or where it was disposed) and both mother and uncle serve sentence.
I feel extremely sad everytime I hear her name, for many times people are discussing other things than herself, a kid that society forgot and had to hold to herself to survive, she was described in her village like a little woman always working hard and helping with family chores like a little adult. She was one of the worst example of collective indifference to child neglect and abuse and I say this as a Portuguese national: we were all guilty for what happened to Joana, the parents who did not care for her and the community itself for it did not do all it should have done for all of them, we all have failed. Her name should only remembered for that reason. Joana brought us a sense of responsibility for all our acts referring to families and children, economically struggling our country has seen the numbers of social technicians and educators drastically reduced (cutting costs at all cost as if life itself had no value), and that scares me again, I sincerely hope we can still remeber her name and never forget how precious life is.
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  #188  
Old 25.05.2012, 12:43
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Re: Missing children

Two police officers found guilty of falsifying evidence in Joana Cipriano case
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The former Portuguese police chief who accused the parents of Madeleine McCann of involvement in her disappearance, has been found guilty of falsifying evidence in another missing child case.
Goncalo Amaral, who was taken off the Madeleine McCann investigation after five months in 2007, was given an 18-month suspended jail sentence by a court in Portugal....
Mr Amaral has now been convicted of falsifying evidence to help cover up for three of his officers who were accused of torture. ...
A fifth officer, Antonio Nunes Cardoso, was found guilty of falsifying documents and was given a two-and-a-half year suspended jail sentence.
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Her mother, Leonor, and uncle, Joao Cipriano, were convicted of murdering her, although her body was never found.
They later claimed they were tortured into confessing but police said that Mrs Cipriano tried to commit suicide by throwing herself off a staircase.
Three inspectors – Leonel Marques, Pereira Cristovao and Paulo Marques Bom – were cleared of torture after a seven-month trial at Faro Court in the Algarve.
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During the trial, it was claimed that Biko's head injuries were the result of a self-inflicted suicide attempt, not those of any beatings.
Steve Biko

Official explanations for deaths in custody include: "fell down stairs", "fell down stairwell"
Cry Freedom (07:30 official explanations for deaths in custody)

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  #189  
Old 25.05.2012, 12:52
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Re: Missing children

The confessions about Joana's murder were made again after the court decision about the inspectors who had made the inquiries, mother and uncle confessed more than once what they have done to Joana. She was the victim.

Last edited by Sparrowgirl; 25.05.2012 at 13:21.
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  #190  
Old 25.05.2012, 13:25
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Re: Missing children

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They themselves said they did not search for their child. This is not stuff we are making up.
What constitutes a "search"? They seem to have done little else for 5 years.

The interpretation of it you are indeed making up.

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I'm not sure I see "pure venom" anywhere on here.
There's plenty.

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I just have my opinion of what happened based on the facts as I see them.
Or as you want to see them. The trouble is, most of us embark on an interest in news stories with a predisposition of sympathy or hostility towards one side, whether or not we realise it, or are willing to admit it. We then unconsciously adjust what it is we read, what parts we regard as credible and unlikely, and which 'facts' we remember and discard. The effect is a piling up of 'evidence' on one side of the story and an incredulity towards the nastiness / gullibility / misanthropy / stupidity (whatever) of those who disagree.
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  #191  
Old 25.05.2012, 13:47
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Re: Missing children

No, I refuse to think people who have different opinions than mine are stupid, I respect their point of view and that is all, I also have my own. When I posted on Joana's behalf I did it because her name was being used almost against herself, like if what her family did was correct.
I posted here thinking about missing children and in all the responsibility we might have when it happens.
For goodness sake do not evoke Biko as a comparison with her mother , I realy do not know if there was violence against her or not while in jail, but something I know for sure: Joana was killed by her relatives, she is not coming back and we could not save her, it was also our fault not to have understood in which danger she really lived in.
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  #192  
Old 25.05.2012, 14:29
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Re: Missing children

You'd think, as a father of two girls, I should be sympathetic towards the McCanns and their predicament. However, I just can't help feeling there is something "not right" about the whole case and them in particular. I can't put my finger on it, but I just don't trust them. I think something dreadful happened to that little girl and they know more about it than they are letting on.
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  #193  
Old 25.05.2012, 21:47
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Re: Missing children

Don't you think that there is a tendency to blame the parents and suspect them of hiding something just because they're the only ones to focus on and there are unanswered questions? It's clear that something happened to the girl. The parents were responsible for her. Now she's gone. But it's not clear where or how or whether she's alive or dead. So combine these unanswered questions with the parents being the only ones to focus on, and they're the ones whose behavior is microanalysed in an attempt to find answers. If they were responsible for her, yet cannot provide the answers, it does not necessarily mean that they are covering something up. It could mean that the investigators did not conduct the investigation in such a way as to answer the questions.
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  #194  
Old 26.05.2012, 01:36
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Re: Missing children

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Don't you think that there is a tendency to blame the parents and suspect them of hiding something just because they're the only ones to focus on and there are unanswered questions? It's clear that something happened to the girl. The parents were responsible for her. Now she's gone. But it's not clear where or how or whether she's alive or dead. So combine these unanswered questions with the parents being the only ones to focus on, and they're the ones whose behavior is microanalysed in an attempt to find answers. If they were responsible for her, yet cannot provide the answers, it does not necessarily mean that they are covering something up. It could mean that the investigators did not conduct the investigation in such a way as to answer the questions.
Such a tendency exists because, statistically, it is 99.9% most often the case that parents are somehow involved. It is so rare that strangers are involved, particularly where such gross negligence exists (leaving babies alone in an unlocked holiday apartment), that winning the lottery is more likely than the parents not being involved somehow.

Just today, the perv who cursed parents around the world to worrying about their child walking 2 blocks to school and disappearing, confessed to the crime of killing him without motive (and a father, even). However, the parents were never suspected of wrongdoing. There are professionals who deal with this sort of thing as part of their job who, rather consistently, comment that something is not altogether right about this case (yes, I did finally read a bit about the story...). You don't need Sherlock Holmes to know that this is an unusual case and, had she been taken by traffickers or other sorts, they'd have had some sort of lead by now.

There's a current case in MA, up in Rockport, where the mom was fetching a ball and, supposedly, the 2yo child disappeared off of a walkway/bridge on Long Beach (I know it since I've lived there). The coast guard did an heroic attempt to at least find the body if she had fallen into the water by using floats and buoys to see where she might have drifted, etc., to no avail, then the family claimed she was snatched (seriously, in Rockport? Please...it's such a small town that folks know who you are, where you live, what you eat for breakfast and the chances of some random weirdo making off with a 2yo in a span of 90 seconds is so slim as to be...ridiculous) and now, the family is being investigated for neglect of the 4yo sister who was supposedly with the 2yo at the time of the event. Who knows what really happened, but, whatever happened the parents know more than perhaps what is being said. It's tragic and, as a parent, I know I'm no Mary Poppins, but at the end of the day I don't leave my kid alone at night in an unlocked apartment or have a dubious grasp on suggesting my child was snatched by a random weirdo in the most closely knit town on the north shore, either. It makes you wonder...and with doubt comes everything that the McCanns have experienced.

I suspect she is dead and the parents know more than they're suggesting. Much like the case with Kaylee in Florida, you know there are a lot of things that don't add up and, as a parent, you know that randomness happens a bit differently. It's all tragic and sad, and we know being a parent is a tough job sometimes but, again, at the end of the day, our kids are reasonably healthy, happy and not left in trash bags in the woods.

The world is a strange place...
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  #195  
Old 30.05.2012, 18:56
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Re: Missing children

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...It is so rare that strangers are involved, particularly where such gross negligence exists (leaving babies alone in an unlocked holiday apartment), that winning the lottery is more likely than the parents not being involved somehow. ...You don't need Sherlock Holmes to know that this is an unusual case and, had she been taken by traffickers or other sorts, they'd have had some sort of lead by now...
Leads depend on how the investigation is handled.
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Madeleine McCann: Unanswered questions
British police have urged Portuguese authorities to reopen the case into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, claiming detectives have uncovered leads to finding her alive...
Scotland Yard says there are 195 potential leads to finding her alive. Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood said he believed her disappearance was a stranger abduction, as he said there were 195 "investigative opportunities".
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  #196  
Old 30.05.2012, 19:56
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Re: Missing children

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What constitutes a "search"? They seem to have done little else for 5 years.

The interpretation of it you are indeed making up.

There's plenty.

Or as you want to see them. The trouble is, most of us embark on an interest in news stories with a predisposition of sympathy or hostility towards one side, whether or not we realise it, or are willing to admit it. We then unconsciously adjust what it is we read, what parts we regard as credible and unlikely, and which 'facts' we remember and discard. The effect is a piling up of 'evidence' on one side of the story and an incredulity towards the nastiness / gullibility / misanthropy / stupidity (whatever) of those who disagree.
I think you know what a search is so I'm not going to spell it out for you.

As for the other stuff. I think you're reading a bit too much into a casual conversation about a "public interest story". I'm really not that emotionally involved.

But your hypothesis if false. I did not "embark on an interest in news stories with a predisposition of sympathy or hostility towards one side" and the "then unconsciously adjust what it is we read, what parts we regard as credible and unlikely, etc, etc, etc". Lots of jumping to conclusions there. In fact I originally believed the story the family put out. I don't anymore. And yes again, these are my interpretations of these facts that I made up in my head.

I'll stick with my interpretation until Maddy returns home and you can stick to yours. It will affect no one and nothing.

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Don't you think that there is a tendency to blame the parents and suspect them of hiding something just because they're the only ones to focus on and there are unanswered questions? It's clear that something happened to the girl. The parents were responsible for her. Now she's gone. But it's not clear where or how or whether she's alive or dead. So combine these unanswered questions with the parents being the only ones to focus on, and they're the ones whose behavior is microanalysed in an attempt to find answers. If they were responsible for her, yet cannot provide the answers, it does not necessarily mean that they are covering something up. It could mean that the investigators did not conduct the investigation in such a way as to answer the questions.
Yes. This is all certainly true. I don't disagree with you in lots of things. But something just doesn't add up in this story for me. I do wish I'm wrong. I'd be very happy to be wrong about my opinion and for Maddy to be found alive.
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Last edited by miniMia; 18.06.2012 at 18:28. Reason: just getting back to this: I mean do not DISagree. We can certainly agree on something things for sure.
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  #197  
Old 16.06.2012, 08:14
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Re: Missing children

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not to start anything ( as if ) but....

does anyone other than her parents think poor Maddy is still alive?

I hope so.
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Old 18.06.2012, 13:49
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Re: Missing children

Read the thread because live in Portugal. Hard to know what to think, but there is enough "blame" to go around:
1. Leaving young children alone in an apartment is highly irresponsible, if not criminal.
2. The police certainly messed up. They were not used to dealing with this kind of crime. In addition there was a lot of "macho" pride involved with either admitting initial investigational blunders, and/or allowing other, more experienced detectives to participate.
3. Although Portugal is relatively safe the Algarve does have a lot of crime these days against foreigners. This seems to perpetrated by non-Portuguese who flee over the open, Spanish border (Eastern European gangs especially).
4. Hate to think the parents were involved, especially since they are still actively pursuing opening of the investigation. But....???
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Old 04.10.2012, 09:49
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Re: Missing children

I just want to say thinking of April Jones and her family, hoping she is found soon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19824594
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Old 04.10.2012, 09:52
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Re: Missing children

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I just want to say thinking of April Jones and her family, hoping she is found soon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19824594
I am really hoping I am wrong but I have a horrible feeling this is going to end badly.

The guy they have was found with waterproof trousers on and camouflage gear in the countryside not far from a river.

I couldn't watch the mother at the press conference - far too upsetting. What must she be going through.
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