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  #101  
Old 13.05.2012, 19:47
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Re: Missing children

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It will be obvious to most people who have followed the case that their child was abducted.
No, it is NOT obvious.

It is obvious that they claim abduction, but no more than that.

Tom
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  #102  
Old 13.05.2012, 21:35
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Re: Missing children

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No, it is NOT obvious.

It is obvious that they claim abduction, but no more than that.

Tom
I'm genuinely sorry that you feel like that, but I see no evidence or rational argument for any other conclusion.

As you'll probably know, most of the anti-McCann stuff grew from the syndication of stories published by the Daily Express in the UK who, it eventually transpired, were being fed misinformation by the police investigation in Portugal. These included allegations that the McCanns had "sold" Madeleine to ease [non-existent] financial problems, and that they were regular attenders of "wife-swapping orgies" and cocaine users. Eventually, the Express admitted that the stories were fed to them by a source who offered zero evidence, and they had to climb down with a grovelling apology.

Unfortunately, the damage had already been done, and has put ideas into people's heads. I spoke to a Spanish colleague at work just recently who has never seen a copy of the Express but referred to the McCanns and their "wild parties". This rubbish can only have come indirectly from the Express campaign.
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  #103  
Old 13.05.2012, 22:19
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Re: Missing children

Yes. Here we go again with the "incompetent local police". The detective was "publicly humiliated" by the McCann PR machine and the local police was put under great pressure to take him off the case when he didn't toe the line with the abduction story.

The idea that they felt "safe" is no reason to leave your children unattended. NONE. I would imagine they feel pretty damn safe at home too. Do they leave their children unattended there? They didn't feel comfortable with the "local" child care providers. Please.

Personally, I feel very sorry for the McCanns. But that doesn't mean I believe their story that the child was abducted which BTW is completely unrelated to their "wild parties". I never heard those stories and frankly don't care. There is no law that say you can't like wild parties. You just need to provide childcare for your kids when you go to them.
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  #104  
Old 14.05.2012, 10:10
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Re: Missing children

This is almost like a religion thread now lol

Look you people who think maddie was abducted, good for you, I respect your point of view, all I have asked is you read the other side of the story, once you do (with an open mind) if you still feel the same then all well and good.

But going around groaning, bad repping, insulting and pm'ing people who have read both sides isn't on IMHO

The McCann have done EVERYTHING to discredit the local police, yet the local police had a huge amount of British police helping them, there is ZERO evidence the little girl was abducted, now given every single policeman, tourist, local, official etc was looking for her then how the hell did she get off the island??

Abducting kids for money makes no sense at all! why would anyone want the heat of taking an english girl, from an upper middle class family on an island, when they can just goto many many third world country and buy a child no questions asked (and have a choice)

If you just look at what we do know then the mccans story make no sense at all, that's my opinion, and I have read both sides (and not from the daily mail or express)

If anyone can show me any proof that these highly organised well funded child snatching criminal gangs exist then I'll rethink my position
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  #105  
Old 14.05.2012, 10:18
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Re: Missing children

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I've found this 'discussion' to be quite depressing.

I can't understand the abuse heaped on the McCann family. It will be obvious to most people who have followed the case that their child was abducted. I don't want to be personal but I struggle to understand how people can happily be so savage to a family who have suffered so much.

Think logically. For this to be some sort of conspiracy in which the parents killed their daughter, or tried to conceal the circumstances of an accident, the McCann's friends would have to have been in on it, in a story concocted at short notice around a dinner table. So they have found their child dead, and their first actions are to get the group to agree on a bogus story while the father carries the body off to dispose of it somehow? Come on. It's shameful that we can think like this.

The very idea that not one of these people, most of whom are healthcare professionals, would not have leaked, over a period of 5 years, a shred of the 'true story' to someone, is not believable.

The policeman who wrote this book was thrown off the case after being publicly humiliated for his incompetent investigation. No wonder he felt motivated to dish the dirt. And despite what he might be claiming, he has indeed apparently earned a sizeable sum from newspaper serialisations and media appearances.

As for the criticism aimed at the whole group for leaving their kids unattended (not just the McCanns), they've frequently explained that they felt safe in this enclosed resort, and that other families were doing the same thing. Again, I don't understand how people can say things like them preferring to "get drunk in peace with their friends" than arrange proper childcare, and saying that they should be sent to prison. The kids were not far away, and the adults made regular checks on them. I'm afraid we can all be a bit sanctimonious in these situations when we know deep down that it's a case of 'there but for the grace of god go I". I know I've done things that in retrospect I've felt lucky to have got away with.

We are all part of a shared humanity and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I believe the McCanns, and Madeleine, deserve our love and sympathy and support, and not abuse.

There's a lot more I could say about this but I'll leave it there.
Thank you Pachyderm, very eloquently put, and exactly how I feel.
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  #106  
Old 14.05.2012, 10:24
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Re: Missing children

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As you'll probably know, most of the anti-McCann stuff grew from the syndication of stories published by the Daily Express in the UK who, it eventually transpired, were being fed misinformation by the police investigation in Portugal.
From Leveson Enquiry: Robert Jay, QC questioning Dan Sanderson, journalist, about publication of Kate McCann's diary in News of the World:
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Q: You tell us something about the background to this McCann diary story, that on 28 July 2008, the story appeared in the Sun newspaper which said that extracts of Kate McCann's diary had emerged in Portugal; is that correct?
A: That's correct....


Q: Can I ask you this, though, in relation to the diary: were you aware that the ultimate source of the diary was the Portuguese police?
A: I wasn't aware at the time, no....

Q: Was there anything about the diary which caused you to speculate as to its source or was your state of mind the same as it had been previously?
A. Thinking back, I mean it had obviously been translated from English to Portuguese. I mean, the source was -- I suppose, thinking back, it must have come from the Portuguese police, absolutely.


Q. So was it at that point that you realised that the source was probably the Portuguese police?
A. That's right. I arranged for the diary to be translated from Portuguese back into English...
Transcript


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  #107  
Old 14.05.2012, 10:26
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Re: Missing children

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This is almost like a religion thread now lol

Look you people who think maddie was abducted, good for you, I respect your point of view, all I have asked is you read the other side of the story, once you do (with an open mind) if you still feel the same then all well and good.

But going around groaning, bad repping, insulting and pm'ing people who have read both sides isn't on IMHO

The McCann have done EVERYTHING to discredit the local police, yet the local police had a huge amount of British police helping them, there is ZERO evidence the little girl was abducted, now given every single policeman, tourist, local, official etc was looking for her then how the hell did she get off the island??

Abducting kids for money makes no sense at all! why would anyone want the heat of taking an english girl, from an upper middle class family on an island, when they can just goto many many third world country and buy a child no questions asked (and have a choice)

If you just look at what we do know then the mccans story make no sense at all, that's my opinion, and I have read both sides (and not from the daily mail or express)

If anyone can show me any proof that these highly organised well funded child snatching criminal gangs exist then I'll rethink my position
Since when was Portugal an island? I'm sorry, but it makes me wonder how many of the other things you are saying can be facts.
As for child snatching and paedophile rings in Portugal, take a look at these....

http://www.google.ch/search?client=f...qi=&aql=&gs_l=
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  #108  
Old 14.05.2012, 10:36
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Re: Missing children

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Since when was Portugal an island? I'm sorry, but it makes me wonder how many of the other things you are saying can be facts.
As for child snatching and paedophile rings in Portugal, take a look at these....

http://www.google.ch/search?client=f...qi=&aql=&gs_l=

LOL that's the way, focus on one mistake, ok replace island with country and resort
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  #109  
Old 14.05.2012, 10:44
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Re: Missing children

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From Leveson Enquiry: Robert Jay, QC questioning Dan Sanderson, journalist, about publication of Kate McCann's diary in News of the World:




I'm shocked, the UK police would NEVER be in bed with the press, oh, hang on
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  #110  
Old 14.05.2012, 11:19
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Re: Missing children

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...all I have asked is you read the other side of the story...
Have seen some of Amaral's documentary "The Truth of the Lie" on YouTube. In part 2, he claims that "We let her down" (he says it in English) is an often-used medical expression. Every English speaker knows that's not true. He also has a problem with Kate McCann not taking the direct route to the restaurant to raise the alarm. A map is then shown, with a yellow line showing the route she took, i.e. the path, and a red line showing the direct route, i.e. across the swiming pool. He also has a problem with the sighting by one of the dinner party members of a man carrying a child across his arms, since this is how a "statue" would pose and not how someone would carry a child. Again clearly nonsense.
The guy is just not credible.
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  #111  
Old 14.05.2012, 11:31
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Re: Missing children

that's it, micro focus, don't look at the bigger picture, just gloss over the smoking guns.

amazing how people who thing they are innocent can pull apart the police so intricately, yet can't see the huge great whooping holes in the other side of the story

ETA just our of interest, can the mccans supporters please state if they are parents or not.

I am a parent, and we have taken our son on holiday, and I can honestly say its never NEVER entered our heads to leave him alone anywhere while we went out on the piss.
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  #112  
Old 14.05.2012, 12:10
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Re: Missing children

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The McCann have done EVERYTHING to discredit the local police, yet the local police had a huge amount of British police helping them, there is ZERO evidence the little girl was abducted, now given every single policeman, tourist, local, official etc was looking for her then how the hell did she get off the island??
The local police were slow to react, Portuguese border controls were not alerted until late on Friday morning - 15 hours after Madeleine went missing.
This would have given an abductor plenty of time to escape.
'It was not until Saturday that officers admitted she could have been abducted even though it was almost inconceivable that a child of three could have wandered off and remained missing for so long. Only then did they start searching hundreds of apartments in the busy resort of Praia da Luz.'
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  #113  
Old 14.05.2012, 12:34
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Re: Missing children

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Since when was Portugal an island? I'm sorry, but it makes me wonder how many of the other things you are saying can be facts.
As for child snatching and paedophile rings in Portugal, take a look at these....

http://www.google.ch/search?client=f...qi=&aql=&gs_l=
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The local police were slow to react, Portuguese border controls were not alerted until late on Friday morning - 15 hours after Madeleine went missing.
This would have given an abductor plenty of time to escape.
'It was not until Saturday that officers admitted she could have been abducted even though it was almost inconceivable that a child of three could have wandered off and remained missing for so long. Only then did they start searching hundreds of apartments in the busy resort of Praia da Luz.'
These articles ALL came out after 2007. After the McCann incident.

If there was such a huge pedophile ring in PT then the alarm would certainly have been raised sooner. Or did PT need the UK to come in and tell them about the rampant pedophilia ring?

Gosh, these stupid bumbling Portuguese. I don't know how we make it through the day.
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  #114  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:05
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Re: Missing children

Okay, can I just say this...
Fact.. a child is missing
Fact.. nobody knows if she is alive or dead, though I'm sure we all hope she is alive.
Fact.. her parents should not have left her and her siblings in an unlocked apartment, we all agree on that.
Fact.. the British police have found 195 'investigative opportunities' whilst reviewing the evidence of the case and are hoping the Portuguese police will eventually re-open the case.
Fact.. there is no evidence that Kate and Gerry McCann harmed Madeleine.

And no, I am not a biological mother, but I am a stepmother, step-grandmother, and an auntie of two nieces and two nephews, who I have looked after, babysat for many times, I spent time almost every day with one or some of them before living here, (some have stayed here with us) and have been on holiday with some of them, and would never leave alone at any time.
I didn't realise that unless I had given birth that I was unable to have an opinion on or knowledge of a poor missing girl.

No, the McCanns should not have left their children for any length of time, but Madeleine deserves to be looked for and that is what they are doing.
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  #115  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:11
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Re: Missing children

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that's it, micro focus, don't look at the bigger picture, just gloss over the smoking guns.

amazing how people who thing they are innocent can pull apart the police so intricately, yet can't see the huge great whooping holes in the other side of the story
The "micro focus" is important, since this guy's a cop. He has to be credible, before you can buy what he's claiming about the people he claims to be responsible. He can supply no reliable evidence (although this was his job), so all he can go on is speculation. The fact that the speculation makes no logical sense doesn't help to make him more credible. Not to mention the leaking of the diary or the "F*** the McCanns" statement. Or the fact that the McCanns, as declared suspects, want the case reopened. Illogical for a guilty party to demand that, unless he's hoping for jail.

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I can't understand the abuse heaped on the McCann family.
They seem to have it all and need to be taken down.
There could also be a tendency to side with the underdogs, i.e. with Portugal and its justice system*, as a poor country with a short democratic tradition (since 1975). Not politically correct to cast doubt on how they handled things (including how they dealt with foreigners who claimed to be victims of crime on their territory and how they investigated the disappearance of a foreign victim).

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Gosh, these stupid bumbling Portuguese. I don't know how we make it through the day.
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  #116  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:17
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Re: Missing children

if you're going down the 'fact' route

then

Fact - there is no evidence she was abducted
fact - there is no evidence the parents didn't harm her
fact - there have been no credible sightings of her despite huge rewards, world wide press coverage and numerous private investigation agencies looking.
fact - normal parents (scrub that, should be normal people) don't leave kids alone, in a foreign country with doors unlocked while they go on the piss

she's dead, she's been dead for a very long time, even if it wasn't the parents then all the press coverage made her far too hot to handle and the international child abduction ring would have got rid of her. And lets face it, if by some miracle she is alive and in someones basement somewhere then she'd be better off dead.
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  #117  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:27
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Re: Missing children

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The "micro focus" is important, since this guy's a cop. He has to be credible, before you can buy what he's claiming about the people he claims to be responsible. He can supply no reliable evidence (although this was his job), so all he can go on is speculation. The fact that the speculation makes no logical sense doesn't help to make him more credible. Not to mention the leaking of the diary or the "F*** the McCanns" statement. Or the fact that the McCanns, as declared suspects, want the case reopened. Illogical for a guilty party to demand that, unless he's hoping for jail.


They seem to have it all and need to be taken down.
There could also be a tendency to side with the underdogs, i.e. with Portugal and its justice system*, as a poor country with a short democratic tradition (since 1975). Not politically correct to cast doubt on how they handled things (including how they dealt with foreigners who claimed to be victims of crime on their territory and how they investigated the disappearance of a foreign victim).

* Example:
seriously ???

lets just gloss over the british police who came to help with the investigation then shall we

underdog?? oh please!!

So what would you have the police do, child goes missing, quick close all ports, roads, check every car etc etc, oh hang on the kid just went wondering off, found her.

Kids wonder off, and I'd bet it happens in holiday resorts thousands of times a season.

They investigate the most likely reason first, otherwise they would start on alien abductions first wouldn't they, or time travel.

Is the policeman bitter, you bet your arse, he was trying to do his job, find maddie, and the parents hire a press officer to ridicule him, his bosses put huge pressure on him, the people who should be helping him most (the parents) refuse to cooperate etc and the world press dig all the dirt on him and make his look like an idiot
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  #118  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:30
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Re: Missing children

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Okay, can I just say this...
Fact.. a child is missing
Fact.. nobody knows if she is alive or dead, though I'm sure we all hope she is alive.
Fact.. her parents should not have left her and her siblings in an unlocked apartment, we all agree on that.
Fact.. the British police have found 195 'investigative opportunities' whilst reviewing the evidence of the case and are hoping the Portuguese police will eventually re-open the case.
Fact.. there is no evidence that Kate and Gerry McCann harmed Madeleine.
I think we can all agree on most of that. I certainly don't think the McCann's "harmed their child". That's not the same as the child had an accident while they were out.

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And no, I am not a biological mother,....
I'm not a mother either.

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The "micro focus" is important, since this guy's a cop. He has to be credible, before you can buy what he's claiming about the people he claims to be responsible. He can supply no reliable evidence (although this was his job), so all he can go on is speculation. The fact that the speculation makes no logical sense doesn't help to make him more credible. Not to mention the leaking of the diary or the "F*** the McCanns" statement. Or the fact that the McCanns, as declared suspects, want the case reopened. Illogical for a guilty party to demand that, unless he's hoping for jail.


They seem to have it all and need to be taken down.
There could also be a tendency to side with the underdogs, i.e. with Portugal and its justice system*, as a poor country with a short democratic tradition (since 1975). Not politically correct to cast doubt on how they handled things (including how they dealt with foreigners who claimed to be victims of crime on their territory and how they investigated the disappearance of a foreign victim).

* Example:
No one is saying this guy has all the answers. I for one certainly didn't mention him at all. He is one man writing about his opinion. I made my opinion based on the evidence that I read and yes I do read both the Portuguese press and the English press. Do you?

There is no reason why you can't criticize Portugal or it's police. In fact look how easy it was to step in and completely discredit it for their own purposes and distract everyone. However, just because the system is different doesn't mean yours is better (or worse).

Anyway, there is a difference between appropriate criticism and blatant "Manuel"-ized characterization of the Portuguese. I mean they can't even be trusted to baby sit??? Really. Please.

Also, you are conflating so much. I have reason nor sentiment to want to "take them down". But whatever. Carry on.

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Is the policeman bitter, you bet your arse, he was trying to do his job, find maddie, and the parents hire a press officer to ridicule him, his bosses put huge pressure on him, the people who should be helping him most (the parents) refuse to cooperate etc and the world press dig all the dirt on him and make his look like an idiot
No kidding. If someone did that to us we would tell them F'off too. The fact that they put that on the news in the UK is telling. That is not news.
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  #119  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:38
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Re: Missing children

What I don't understand is how the McCanns thought the Portuguese were not trustworthy to babysit their children, yet they were not afraid to leave their kids unattended in an unlocked hotel room in a country made up by the said dubious individuals..
Whatever people may say, it is their story which is very dubious..
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Old 14.05.2012, 13:42
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Re: Missing children

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What I don't understand is how the McCanns thought the Portuguese were not trustworthy to babysit their children...
When did they say that?
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madeleine mccann, missing children




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