Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11.05.2012, 16:37
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,631
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

This time it's JPM - the one with the supposedly sophisticated risk management systems, and Jamie Dimon who thinks he's clever enough to tell regulators how the global banking system should be regulated...

The so called 'Whale' in London - their trader who was taking such large positions that he was singlehandedly moving the whole market, he .. well.. wasn't apparently as clever as he was bursting with cash.

"The portfolio has proved to be riskier, more volatile and less effective as an economic hedge than we thought," CEO Jamie Dimon told reporters on Thursday. "There were many errors, sloppiness and bad judgment."


They have owned up to $ 2Bn in losses. And admitted that they may lose another Billion or two before they are able to unwind the whole tangled trade...

Plus ca change, plus ...
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank dino for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 11.05.2012, 16:40
Uncle Max's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Züri
Posts: 7,553
Groaned at 164 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 8,424 Times in 3,486 Posts
Uncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Quote:
View Post
...

"We are contrite; Lord have mercy" CEO Jamie Dimon told reporters on Thursday. "There were many errors, sloppiness and bad judgment."
If only...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11.05.2012, 17:20
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,631
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

he meant ... "There were many errors, sloppiness and bad judgment; none of which were MINE"

I just love how quickly new terms are created in reaction to news events... Since CEO Jamie Dimon's hubris was well known (he was quick to lecture the media, other bankers, regulators and legislators..), it is not surprising that there is a fair bit of smug satisfaction expressed at his downfall.

Dimonfreude, it's being called ... :-)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank dino for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 12.05.2012, 00:36
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,631
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Aha. It appears they got burned selling CDS's.

poor guys. give them a break I say. How are they supposed to know that CDS's can blow up in your face without warning??

Not like it's happened before...

Oh wait
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12.05.2012, 09:19
California Dreamer's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,082
Groaned at 176 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 1,202 Times in 617 Posts
California Dreamer has annoyed a few people around hereCalifornia Dreamer has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

And the scapegoat for this systematic problem is.......
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12.05.2012, 10:11
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,232
Groaned at 107 Times in 64 Posts
Thanked 2,060 Times in 687 Posts
Busby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Quote:
View Post
This time it's JPM - the one with the supposedly sophisticated risk management systems, and Jamie Dimon who thinks he's clever enough to tell regulators how the global banking system should be regulated...

The so called 'Whale' in London - their trader who was taking such large positions that he was singlehandedly moving the whole market, he .. well.. wasn't apparently as clever as he was bursting with cash.

"The portfolio has proved to be riskier, more volatile and less effective as an economic hedge than we thought," CEO Jamie Dimon told reporters on Thursday. "There were many errors, sloppiness and bad judgment."


They have owned up to $ 2Bn in losses. And admitted that they may lose another Billion or two before they are able to unwind the whole tangled trade...

Plus ca change, plus ...
It doesn't really seem to matter anyway. It's all peanuts. Right at what would almost be the end, (and I'm sure there will be one) there's always the tax-payer to help out when all seems lost.
So come on you bankers, carry on regardless, the worst that can happen is that the tax-payers can no longer pay then we can all start again - with your help of course...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Busby for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 12.05.2012, 13:32
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,983
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

the fact that the CEO publicly named the trader who was allegedly involved tells you that the trading positions taken by the bank had been approved at levels much higher than the individual trader. by most accounts, the JPM case is different than the other recent cases because these were not "rogue" trades, they were likely a series of trades where the bank simply bet wrong on the credit markets.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12.05.2012, 17:19
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,631
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

I think the reason he was forced to name the trader in question was simply that the trades by Iskil (the "London Whale") made the news weeks ago; it was said that he was taking such large positions in CDS market that he was singlehandedly distorting the market...

I may be naive, but I thought secrecy was a trader's most important weapon; the last thing you want, when you have billions riding on a trade, is for everyone and their dog to know what you're trading and what positions you have.

Now that they have admitted to the loss, JPM are like sitting ducks - every hedge fund out there is trading against their known positions. Look for this 2 Bn loss to blow up to at least 4 or 5 Bn as the vultures whip up a feeding frenzy...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12.05.2012, 21:35
FrankZappa's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: France, near Geneva
Posts: 865
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,777 Times in 728 Posts
FrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond reputeFrankZappa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Yep, JPMorgan are going to be taken to the cleaners for at least another billion. Maybe a few more... Here's what I was reading when I thought: "Must see what the hotshots at EF have to say..."

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/05...ght-be-coming/

Apparently Dimon read about the problem in the papers.

Slightly OT: Did any else got to see the Wall Street drama "Margin Call"? I thought it was excellent.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank FrankZappa for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 12.05.2012, 21:42
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,023
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,560 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

I know, let's have the USA print some more dollars. Because they can and it's worthless, not based on reserves anyway.

Oh wait, they've be doing that for decades I've just been told ....
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 12.05.2012, 21:49
gflorezv's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: BERN
Posts: 120
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 33 Times in 21 Posts
gflorezv has made some interesting contributions
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

This and casinos, looks like the same thing!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12.05.2012, 23:54
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 456
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Briefly worked for this !@#$^**((*^#%^ some years ago.
Been walking round with a an ear-ear grin for the past 2 days.

Quote:
View Post
This time it's JPM - the one with the supposedly sophisticated risk management systems, and Jamie Dimon who thinks he's clever enough to tell regulators how the global banking system should be regulated...

The so called 'Whale' in London - their trader who was taking such large positions that he was singlehandedly moving the whole market, he .. well.. wasn't apparently as clever as he was bursting with cash.

"The portfolio has proved to be riskier, more volatile and less effective as an economic hedge than we thought," CEO Jamie Dimon told reporters on Thursday. "There were many errors, sloppiness and bad judgment."


They have owned up to $ 2Bn in losses. And admitted that they may lose another Billion or two before they are able to unwind the whole tangled trade...

Plus ca change, plus ...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 13.05.2012, 02:12
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 456
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

simple!!!!!

It works like this:
I gamble loadsa punters money on some virtual gamble.

THERE ARE ONLY 2 POSSIBLE OUTCOMES:
I win!.
The punter gets money back and the bank makes loadsa virtual cash
(all gains are later realised on REAL ASSETS I.E. your mortages, insurances premiums, pensions etc.)

I lose, and guess what!!??
The punter loses loses money and (the bank BREAKS EVEN!
(all losses are later realised by raiding your mortages, insurances premiums, pensions etc. and by increased taxes )
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 13.05.2012, 13:33
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Quote:
View Post
he meant ... "There were many errors, sloppiness and bad judgment; none of which were MINE"

I just love how quickly new terms are created in reaction to news events... Since CEO Jamie Dimon's hubris was well known (he was quick to lecture the media, other bankers, regulators and legislators..), it is not surprising that there is a fair bit of smug satisfaction expressed at his downfall.

Dimonfreude, it's being called ... :-)
To be quick and harsh to lecture NON-bankers quite obviously is a kind of "déformation professionelle" of banking people as most bankers clearly were born in those villages where people are always right For the best of us all I nevertheless hope that JPM will survive and not go belly up
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 13.05.2012, 14:38
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,631
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

I don't think anyone would want to see a large institution go belly up - that will mean lots of job losses and market disturbance and another round of bailouts - basically more pain for people who had nothing to do with this.

I think what people want to see is appropriate retribution for the ones responsible, and a more rational debate about what is wrong with the current financial/regulatory system. It is obscene that AFTER the current debacle, Jamie Dimon is still insisting that any government clampdown on proprietary trading by banks would be counterproductive; and that some politicians in the US are still sympathetic to his point of view...
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 14.05.2012, 11:25
ratbag's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zürich
Posts: 456
Groaned at 21 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 374 Times in 203 Posts
ratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeableratbag is considered knowledgeable
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

14th May 2012

Dimon geezers

“JP Morgan Chase last night announced a surprise $2 billion trading loss on credit derivatives trading, which chief executive Jamie Dimon blamed on “errors, sloppiness and bad judgment”, warning it “could get worse”.
- From The Financial Times, Friday 11th May 2012.

“The best way to build shareholder value is to build a great company, with exemplary products and services, excellent systems, quality accounting and reporting, effective controls and outstanding people.”
- From the JP Morgan Chase Annual Report 2011.

Imagine you are one of two people playing „Monopoly‟. While you follow the rules religiously, the other player – who also happens to be the banker – does not. He routinely appropriates properties. If he doesn‟t like the score on the dice, he simply changes them. He continually takes as much money from the bank as he likes. Whenever the rules don‟t suit he arbitrarily alters them in his favour. And he hates to lose. Rather than concede defeat, he is perfectly willing to set fire to the board. Imagine no longer. This is the state of the financial markets. You are playing against the world‟s central banks.

Attachment 42853





Quote:
View Post
I don't think anyone would want to see a large institution go belly up - that will mean lots of job losses and market disturbance and another round of bailouts - basically more pain for people who had nothing to do with this.

I think what people want to see is appropriate retribution for the ones responsible, and a more rational debate about what is wrong with the current financial/regulatory system. It is obscene that AFTER the current debacle, Jamie Dimon is still insisting that any government clampdown on proprietary trading by banks would be counterproductive; and that some politicians in the US are still sympathetic to his point of view...

Last edited by ratbag; 05.06.2012 at 22:15.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ratbag for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 14.05.2012, 11:43
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

To be fair was that not something Mr. Lewis came up with, but some Chinese guy called Wikipedia reference-linkLaotse in 600 BC...

Chapter 56 of the Tao te ching:
http://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu56.html

P.S: I only know this cause I love this book - it is full of smart-ass lines that I have used as openers for otherwise completely boring ppt sessions... and I used this particular one in a study paper back in college for a professor I always wished would simply shut up once instead of spreading some seriously wrong half-knowledge...

Last edited by Treverus; 14.05.2012 at 11:54.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:09
titius's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Hinwil
Posts: 145
Groaned at 6 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 106 Times in 62 Posts
titius is considered knowledgeabletitius is considered knowledgeabletitius is considered knowledgeable
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Quote:
View Post
I know, let's have the USA print some more dollars. Because they can and it's worthless, not based on reserves anyway.

Oh wait, they've be doing that for decades I've just been told ....
It's like that everywhere in the world.

Even worse: central banks are private.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:45
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,631
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Ina Drew, who ran the CIO office for JPM, and who oversaw the whale trade, is apparently out of a job.

She is, however, not rushing to apply to RAV right away. She was paid $15 Million last year...

And that for work that CEO Dimon recently described as “flawed, complex, poorly reviewed, poorly executed and poorly monitored.” Wonder how much you can get paid if you're realllly good.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 14.05.2012, 13:53
flavio's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Winterthur
Posts: 764
Groaned at 69 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 614 Times in 345 Posts
flavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputationflavio has an excellent reputation
Re: Another multi billion dollar trading loss ... yawn

Quote:
View Post
And that for work that CEO Dimon recently described as “flawed, complex, poorly reviewed, poorly executed and poorly monitored.” Wonder how much you can get paid if you're realllly good.
Dimon wants to keep his job, someone else has to burn.

To cover his ass says about those guys:
"Until recently, they were careful and successful".

In other words, they turned bad recently and that is why he just found out, before they were good guys.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank flavio for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Yawn EF has gone boring Sutter Forum support 30 05.05.2012 19:16


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0