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  #21  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:00
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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He has stood up for what he believes in and should be admired for that, yes. He then by his own admission had sex with 2 women and these women are now claiming sexual assault or similar. If these charges are real then he should face them, if they are 'farcical' as some are suggesting, then it probably won't go to trial.

Is there any hard evidence that if he goes to Sweden then he will be extrodited to the US, or is he saying this to put the Swedish into disrepute?

If you really believe that the truth will outshine political and diplomatic issues, then yes , a trial is his right and in a truthful world may well exhonerate him...

I just do not trust the motives behind the extradition, the US is known to be vindictive and retributive in these matters.

But , seeing the actions of the man caught up on this , and given the time he has had to dwell on options , and given that he has excellent advisors, the asylum claim may well be the last option for the truth to hide from what are more powerful enemies of the truth.
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  #22  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:07
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

No, but Iran and Egypt. Sweden has previusly let CIA pick up people on Swedish soil fully aware they would be sent to Egypt and fully aware they would be tortured.

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I'm not sure comparing Sweden with Iran is particularly valid, they are chalk and cheese.
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  #23  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:08
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

I have no idea if Julian Assange is a nice guy or not, never having personally met him, it's a moot point. But what isn't is that he's been the catalyst in opening doors that were previously locked and sealed by people in authority to cover up nasty secrets and misdoings that were used against those unable to defend themselves.

If Assange has stopped at least one further act of governmental abuse in a realm of non-accountability, then his work on this planet is commendable. His choice and method of sexual practices is simply irrelevant to the Wikileaks situation. If you've suffered at the hands of an overbearing régime who have practised rendition or been tortured, been the victim of a smear campaign don't you think it's about time for the real truth to surface and breathe the air? Assange has been an enabler, that is undeniable.
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  #24  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:08
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

Facing a justice system that is so politicized is a problem in my opinion.
There are various sources on the quality of the Swedish justice system but none seem to give the claim of Assange's rape any credibility:

"If consensual sex that started out with the intention of condom use, and actual condom use ended up without condom, that's rape.

Statements by the two female "victims" Sophia Wilén and Anna Ardin that there was no fear or violence would stop a rape charge in any western country dead in its tracks."

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/s...-1225965652205

Now I know as much as anyone, but deporting a guy without evidence for an alleged rape of two women which did not involve any violence or fear seems as absurd as it gets, especially if it could involve possible deportation where he faces a justice system that is even worse, and where he has been threatened by the president...
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  #25  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:17
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

Has nobody actually looked up the details of this "sexual assault"

In Sweden, things that count as rape include: not using a condom.

This is what he was charged with. The first case was that the condom broke, the second that the second time they had sex, he didn't use one.

They also originally reported it, only for medical reasons - they wanted him to get tested but couldn't find him. In fact, it's really not clear that they wanted to press charges initially at all.


So, please take it in perspective. Rape, real rape is clearly a terrible thing. This... is questionable usage of the term at best.

Wikipedia
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According to published reports, the charges Sweden has lodged against Assange involve two different women. Their initial intention was reportedly to force Assange to take an HIV test. There are four charges: that on 14 August 2010 he committed "unlawful coercion" when he held complainant 1 down with his body weight in a sexual manner; that he "sexually molested" complainant 1 when he had condom-less sex with her after she insisted that he use one; that he had condom-less sex with complainant 2 on the morning of 17 August while she was asleep; and that he "deliberately molested" complainant 1 on 18 August 2010 by pressing his erect penis against her body.[194][195]
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  #26  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:22
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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I would prefer that somebody brought charges on him and proved that he is guilty, instead of Assange having to actively prove his innocence...
that rule does not apply at Guantanamo, from what I hear...
which is where Assange will end up if he 'mans up'
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  #27  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:28
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

More irony: cosying up with regimes not known for press freedom or democracy

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Why Assange turned to Ecuador for help

This year Ecuador made headlines internationally for what critics said was a government crackdown on private media. ...

So the decision by Wikileaks founder Julian Assange to seek asylum at Ecuador's embassy in London might seem odd.

However, it does not come entirely out of the blue.
Ecuador: Six radio broadcasters and two TV stations shut down in two weeks

Russia: Assange talk show on Russian TV

Press freedom index
Sweden 12
Ecuador 104
Russia 142

Democracy index
Sweden 4
Ecuador 89
Russia 117

Last edited by Reb77Br; 20.06.2012 at 15:25.
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  #28  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:48
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

[QUOTE=nigelr;1587594]He should face his accusers.

To me , it is illogical to face even the tinest risk of being found guilty when you know you are innocent. He is facing a possible death penalty in the US.

If China wanted you for rape and sedition etc, knowing that you were not guilty of the crimes, explain to me why you would face the real risk of State interference , media frenzy and huge bills and then death to disprove something you already know to be false...

That's foolish isn't it ?

Guantanamo ended all hopes of anyone relying on a fair trial in the US.
He is justifed to refuse to face trial in the US.
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  #29  
Old 20.06.2012, 14:54
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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Why the personal attack?
Personal attack?

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Fact.
No. Opinion - fact.
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  #30  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:08
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

In the end, thanks to the guy we know that the US have their mucky fingers in a lot of torrid pies.

So what is anybody gonna do about it?
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  #31  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:16
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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To me , it is illogical to face even the tinest risk of being found guilty when you know you are innocent. He is facing a possible death penalty in the US.

Guantanamo ended all hopes of anyone relying on a fair trial in the US.
He is justifed to refuse to face trial in the US.
This is about an extradition to Sweden, is there any hard evidence that he will then go on to the US? The UK also sends people to the US to face trial, so why doesn't the US just ask the UK - or did they?

In the interest of justice you have to separate the wikileaks stuff from the sexual assault stuff. This is about going to Sweden to answer questions, not going to the US to face a different trial.
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  #32  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:19
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

The US does not easily forget ( or forgive ).

Quote:
While nearly three decades has passed since Hemler went AWOL, he remains a wanted man by the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI), which confirmed that a man identifying himself as Hemler recently contacted the agency.

“We really want to catch this guy,” AFOSI spokesperson Linda Card told the New York Times.
http://www.thelocal.se/41518/20120618/
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  #33  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:20
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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He is facing a possible death penalty in the US.
No chance of being extradited from an EU country like Sweden to face the death penalty anywhere. Against EU law and against European case law.

EU law
"Where the offence for which extradition is sought is punishable by death under the laws in the requesting State and not punishable by death under the laws in the requested State, the requested State may grant extradition on the condition that the death penalty shall not be imposed on the person sought, or if for procedural reasons such condition cannot be complied withby the requesting State, on condition that the death penalty if imposed shall not be carried out."

European case law
"The European Court on Human Rights was one of the first international tribunals to address the legality of extraditing fugitives to face the death penalty. Soering v. United Kingdom, 11 Eur. Hum. Rts. Rep. 439 (1989), the court held that the United Kingdom's extradition of a German national to face capital murder charges in Virginia would violate its obligations under article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which prohibits cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment."
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  #34  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:26
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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This is about an extradition to Sweden, is there any hard evidence that he will then go on to the US? The UK also sends people to the US to face trial, so why doesn't the US just ask the UK - or did they?

In the interest of justice you have to separate the wikileaks stuff from the sexual assault stuff. This is about going to Sweden to answer questions, not going to the US to face a different trial.

That's not a serious question is it ? Give it a google and come back to the discssion.
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  #35  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:26
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

LOL yes because I am sure he would receive a fair trial
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  #36  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:33
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

I thought this case is ridiculous to just about anyone - multiple court hearings, 240000 GBP bail and finally a deportation for not using a condom? WTF.
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  #37  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:41
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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I thought this case is ridiculous to just about anyone - multiple court hearings, 240000 GBP bail and finally a deportation for not using a condom? WTF.

I wholeheratedly agree, it is not the quest for justice driving this, it is revenge...
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  #38  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:41
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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WTF.
Poor choice of acronym, that's the whole point of the extradition proceedings ....
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  #39  
Old 20.06.2012, 15:54
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

Assange does seem to divide opinion doesn't he?

Personally, I think the 'work' that he has put forward is incredibly important, but, he also appears to me to be something of a martyr - which is completely my own prejudice and should be ignored from now on.

What I find interesting are two things; a lack of a charge in Sweden (stupid question but if he is 'only' required for questioning, could this not take place in the UK by members of the Swedish constabulary) and why Australia seem to be fairly silent on the matter.

If he was sent to either Sweden by the UK or to the US by Sweden should his own government not intervene - or has he simply pissed them off, relinquished Australian nationality?
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  #40  
Old 20.06.2012, 16:01
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Re: Assange should man up and not run

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I do not love Assange or hate him. There are rumours of sexual wrong doing I believe by 2 women, and it is these questions he has to answer. He cannot duck this issue by saying 'nobody likes me because I embarrased a few governments so I cannot possibly have a fair trial'.

I agree that alot of things are now in the open because of him and he was doing what he thought was right by exposing things, but the fact remains. He should face his accusers.
Why and more pertinently, which ones? The ones who have an axe to grind and want to shut him up? Would you want to go up against the might of the US Attorney Hell bent on shutting you up?

I wouldn't. AFAIK, the information he has released has not been proven to be false, so in effect the US Forces want him out of the game as his leaks are downright embarrassing for them and showing them up to be not much better than the "terrorists" they are fighting.

Aren't the issues as follows:

1) The US wants Assange in the US for trial for crimes against humanity (well the US, but we know what that means)

2) He can be extradited from Sweden to the US

3) Rape in Sweden carries a "guilty until innocent" approach IIRC, thus he would have to go to Sweden to stand trial

4) While in Sweden he could be extradited to the US

5) The US have their man and can shut him up/down (I doubt they would put him to death)

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I also don't think even the US would have the balls to put him to death, the fallout would be massive - which is probably why he is still walking around today and hasn't met with 'an accident'.
Agree for now, but if they don't get what they want, things could change...
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