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  #21  
Old 28.06.2012, 23:52
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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Of course the whole thing is a little bit more complex than I stated above. I think the main problem where that the German middle classes were practically eliminated in the hyperinflation in the beginning of the 20s. Which followed the French occupation of the
Rheinland.

Because the Germans did deliver one or two telophone poles too few to the French, the French invaded the main industrial area of Germany. As response to the Frech occupation the German government ordered people to sabotage the industry and exert civil disobedience. To pay for all this the printed lots of money, which caused hyperinflation (there are theories that the German government knowingly provoked the hyperinflation such as the French would get less from them).
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Who cares about the beginning of the 20ies (even if you are right that hyperinflation was again german fault) if Feldherrnhalle failed and Hitler was in jail. There is no such thing as a link between hyperinflation/Ruhr occupation and NS' raise.
This would be again what NS tried to make people believe in 1933.


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As a result of this the middle classes were financially ruined, as the majority of their possessions were in the form of bank accounts. Quite understandably this people got fed up with the democratic parties that were in power at this time.
If you consider that it is normally the middle classes that most strongly support democracy, this was disastrous for the future history of Germany.
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Germany recovered quickly very well from that period of time. The desaster was 1929, not 1922. However, again, Germany got all but struck alone.


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When in 1929 crises struck again and American banks suddenly took their gold, which they had given to German banks in order to help it recover from hyperinflation, out of the German banks, the whole German economy collapsed in an instant. This situation is unique in the way that banks suddenly lost most of their funds from one day to an other,
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And maybe it was raining, too.
The situation is unique in the eye of everybody ho got struck by a crisis, as he normally feels that pain for the first time and has no means to consider it ex-post and use that kind of information during that period. There is nothing special in Germany's 1929 except that the downfall was from a very high point. Others had not yet recovered so well from WWI.


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The believe that there is something special about the German people which enabled the rise of the Nazis, that is not present in other people. Or that the rise of a similar leader would have been impossible if it was an other people then German one, that found itself in the same situation is highly racist in my opinion.
Well, Laertes,

It's not me to adopt arguments NS used in its propaganda,

nor did I claim a German to be less of worth than others or inferior or whatever (I assure you I would get a major interior problem if I did so),

I think that Goldhagen had many errors in his theory, also if he may have some point then and there, and I'm not Goldhagen or, much worse, a racist.

Germany has a national complex, for some years now (starting from Walser and the other fools) tries to cut it back and now Merkel tries to get rid of it using financial policies in this matter by claiming to defend the abused German victim.
It's social psychology, not ethnics, we are talking. And it stinks.
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  #22  
Old 29.06.2012, 00:15
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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I don't know if up from Mrs Thatcher till today there is that much Britain can really be proud of,

but if there is something in history GB can claim its success in, than it's for sure WWII.

And this is an enormous difference to all other Western European countries, yes.
Yes yes yes .Never mind CAN,NZ,AUS,India, etz, etz,
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  #23  
Old 29.06.2012, 00:23
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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I don't know if up from Mrs Thatcher till today there is that much Britain can really be proud of,

but if there is something in history GB can claim its success in, than it's for sure WWII.

And this is an enormous difference to all other Western European countries, yes.
Yes yes yes .Never mind CAN,NZ,AUS,India, etz, etz,
Right .....
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  #24  
Old 29.06.2012, 01:18
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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Today in London the Queen will open a £6m memorial to the 55,573 aircrew that died during WW2 while serving in RAF bomber command.

Isn't this a bit late? 65 years ago would have been a suitable time, perhaps! Remembering all the thousands of civilian victims in Cologne, Dresden and Hamburg would have also been a good thing.

I served nine years in the RAF fighter command, so I don't have an axe to grind. But after 65 years it really is time to stop this nonsense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18600871
It of course is time to stop such nonsense. But politicians all around love such occasions, and so it possibly will never stop. The idea for that memorial hardly came from QEII, but rather from somebody in the Royal Air Force
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  #25  
Old 29.06.2012, 07:24
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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Germany has a national complex, for some years now (starting from Walser and the other fools) tries to cut it back and now Merkel tries to get rid of it using financial policies in this matter by claiming to defend the abused German victim.
It's social psychology, not ethnics, we are talking. And it stinks.
Honestly, Germany has a national complex? You just remind me of Dylan Moran...



You seriously manage to connect Merkels financial politics to Hitler? That is nothing short of idiotic. My dad is in his 70s and was a pre-school boy in WW2. The time people had a complex are long over, but it seems that especially Brits seem to bring up nothing else than Hitler. Probably because Germany was since WW2 overall a success story and Britain is not the world power it once was anymore.

I'll give you the short story on the financial politics: Since WW2 had Western Germany one really basic principle: the currency is not something politicians are allowed to play with. The Bundesbank was set up entirely independent and even Merkel would get nothing than a f off if she tried to tell them what to do today. We only joined the Euro on the prerequisite that the ECB would be set up similarily independant knowing full well that for example France used their currency all the time as an acceptable economic politics tool.
This principle is so strong in the German system that Merkel technically even cannot agree to Eurobonds - they would be unconstitutional according to the German Grundgesetz. So she would need a 2/3 majority in parliament to change a fundamental principle which is widely considered one of the reasons of Germanys economic power. It is not going to happen, especially not before the next election.
The richer Greeks dodged 15% of the countries GDP in taxes. Every year. Heck, that would be some 100 B EUR if it was Germany... we would be bancrupt as well. And I have no idea why it should be the German tax payer who should pay the taxes the richer part of Greece dodged the last decade... but yes, it must be some psychological thing and Germany wants nothing else than to rise up again.

Your posts shows me that more dialogue is indeed needed. A memorial for bomber Harris won't do that job.
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  #26  
Old 29.06.2012, 15:25
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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Honestly, Germany has a national complex?
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Of course.

This alone is no problem (as until a couple of years ago Germany has been handling it quite well), but we all get one if some self-declared German elite try to get rid of it. What Walser, Grass and Sarrazin have been preparing mentally, Merkel tries to do in politics, yes. Or let's better say: By using the victimizing complex, self-pity and general public opinion Germany being far superior than the sucking PIGS, the marranos, the Jews, Goldman Sachs, Wallstreet, the Southeners, she tries to rebuild her power she lost in recent elections.

She would have no chance to do so if we were still in the 80ies (remember Jenninger?).

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The time people had a complex are long over, but it seems that especially Brits seem to bring up nothing else than Hitler. Probably because Germany was since WW2 overall a success story and Britain is not the world power it once was anymore.
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You might have a point there, however I wouldn't say Germany is full success and GB a complete failure.
True that Germany before 1945, apart from the mid 20ies, is a complete failure in politics and institutional matters, for some 2000 years.
So the success (of the Western part) after 1945 is rocket-like, yes.


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I'll give you the short story on the financial politics: Since WW2 had Western Germany one really basic principle: the currency is not something politicians are allowed to play with. The Bundesbank was set up entirely independent and even Merkel would get nothing than a f off if she tried to tell them what to do today. We only joined the Euro on the prerequisite that the ECB would be set up similarily independant knowing full well that for example France used their currency all the time as an acceptable economic politics tool.
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I don't know what you exactly mean by "us" and "you",

in any case I don't see why anybody should care at all why German politicians (of whom Merkel is Germany's first one of international power to obey to your given rule) could yes or no make their institutions cope with political and financial needs of national and international interest. European people from outside Germany don't give a damn about the inner German meccanisms why Germany spits in their face and blocks coordination and cooperation.



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This principle is so strong in the German system that Merkel technically even cannot agree to Eurobonds - they would be unconstitutional according to the German Grundgesetz. So she would need a 2/3 majority in parliament to change a fundamental principle which is widely considered one of the reasons of Germanys economic power. It is not going to happen, especially not before the next election.
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Nobody cares about that silly German law, believe me. That's its inside Treibsand that Germany has to live with, not others.

However, this night at Bxl and at Warsaw shows clearly that something keeps on going if someone wants it to be going.


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The richer Greeks dodged 15% of the countries GDP in taxes. Every year. Heck, that would be some 100 B EUR if it was Germany... we would be bancrupt as well. And I have no idea why it should be the German tax payer who should pay the taxes the richer part of Greece dodged the last decade...
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Because the German tax payers is among those who mainly gets his profits out from the EU's existence. Not the Greek.


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Your posts shows me that more dialogue is indeed needed. A memorial for bomber Harris won't do that job.
Of course that memorial is not enough, I agree on that.

The link between the two things is that of course Europe before 1989 is a result of Hitler and Stalin,

and 20 years up from then were not enough to get rid of old traditions in public opinion and also in national institutional matters. Bxl unfortunately did not still succeed in power cutting of EU's members, not only of its big ones (but of course EU's major problem nowadays is Germany).

Germans feel to be victims for centuries (Platz an der Sonne, Dolchstosslegende, hyperinflation, 1929, Hitler der Böhmische Gefreite, NS, Bomber Command, Scheckbuchdiplomatie and all that crap directly coming or from the NS propaganda itself or from DVU, NSU and the other fools) and of course life in Germany wasn't always very easy (that changed with 1949, at least for the Western part). But unfortunately a difficult life was not only limited to Germany, but to quite everybody else in the world, most of whom up from 1936 had a miserable life not because of destinity, but precisely because of German crimes (but remember already the Bolshevik revolution is Made in Germany so also Stalin at leat partially is a German product),

that, among others, Bomber command with a high death-toll managed to limit at least in its extension and timelace for the Western part of Europe and Northern Africa,

as otherwise we maybe couldn't write openly what we think in a forum like this one here.

Last edited by Bucentaure; 29.06.2012 at 15:36.
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  #27  
Old 29.06.2012, 15:48
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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There isn't a specific period of time that is gong to work for everyone, but the Brits do seem to keep on dragging WW2 history into the modern age when everyone else has moved on.
Weeeell, we do also have comments quite frequently from the other side of the Atlantic reminding us that we'd be speaking German by now if it weren't for them.

I usually answer "Ich rede schon Deutsch" which sort of smothers the debate.
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  #28  
Old 29.06.2012, 15:57
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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Yes yes yes .Never mind CAN,NZ,AUS,India, etz, etz,
India I'm not sure. Although it is known that many Indians fought in WW2, it is not something that in my observations Indians commemorate very much. And if they do talk about it, it is in the context of something they did for Britain or something Britain made them do rather than something India or Indians did to make the world a better place. I'm happy to stand corrected though.
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  #29  
Old 29.06.2012, 16:02
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Re: WW2 RAF bomber command crews remembered

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Honestly, Germany has a national complex?
Oh yes they do.

Just recently some Green politician expressed great concern over the large number of German flags being flown all over tha place because of football.

This phobia is not verging on the ridiculous. No, the ridiculous is sane in comparison.

Maybe those guys ought to take some history lessons and see that the flag that was used 70 years ago was a different one.

And these was not just an isolated idiot still mentally living in 1948. If it was he would have been laughed at by everybody else. He wasn't.
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