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  #141  
Old 23.07.2012, 09:20
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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We still can find you ten times more exemples of men mass murderer.
So you admit that men are simply more capable than women? The truth will out, I guess!

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A spectacular lack of judgement and sensitivity from Madonna this weekend...brandishing guns on stage in Scotland
Right. Because the whole world needs to stop and focus every time someone dies. I might buy that it was insensitive if she'd have been playing in Denver, but half a world away? This is just a tabloid writer trying to wind people up; down that path lies profit.

Illegal, apparently. But insensitive? Nonsense. And by the way - Madonna is a master of marketing. By spreading the attention on her, you're simply supporting her revenue engine.
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  #142  
Old 23.07.2012, 09:29
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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Right. Because the whole world needs to stop and focus every time someone dies. I might buy that it was insensitive if she'd have been playing in Denver, but half a world away? This is just a tabloid writer trying to wind people up; down that path lies profit.

Illegal, apparently. But insensitive? Nonsense. And by the way - Madonna is a master of marketing. By spreading the attention on her, you're simply supporting her revenue engine.
Maybe.....

I could have said that I find it insensitive - probably would have been more accurate. IMO, there is something distasteful about glamourising guns at any time, but I'm not so naive to think it will ever stop. But I just think that balancing the visual impact of one song in a concert against something so shocking in her home country its probably not a decision that was wise to make. But you say "potato".....vive la difference

Still - I guess it could have been worse - she could have got her old lady boobs out again
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  #143  
Old 23.07.2012, 09:38
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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I actually believe that people should have guns. And also not be restricted to non-automatic weapons.

Guns put power literally into the hands of the people and an armed and trained population is a good check on democracy.
I hope You are being ironic. Otherwise..... BIG GROAN

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...nd-killed.html
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  #144  
Old 23.07.2012, 09:52
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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If you can't 'engage' with it, maybe you would like to move to a different country, since Switzerland is an example of a country which benefits from a trained population and more or less a military rifle in every home.

But let's not forget that in Switzerland one sick individual could never get hold of 6000!!! rounds of ammo!
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  #145  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:37
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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Colorado Batman shooting shows obvious signs of being staged
  • His behavior doesn't add up
  • Holmes was clearly provided with exotic gear
  • FBI has a track record of staging similar assaults, then stopping them at the last minute
  • Mystery man Holmes has no background
  • Question: How does an unemployed medical student afford $20,000 in weapons gear?
  • Staged just in time for a vote on the UN small arms treaty?

http://www.naturalnews.com/036536_Ja...alse_flag.html
I can very much imagine this being staged.

After all, if the life of more than 3000 people was worth to sacrifice just to get the "patriot act" passed, than nothing is sacred to the US government at all.
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  #146  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:45
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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I can very much imagine this being staged.

After all, if the life of more than 3000 people was worth to sacrifice just to get the "patriot act" passed, than nothing is sacred to the US government at all.
I can very much imagine you being a lunatic then
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  #147  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:46
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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I hope You are being ironic. Otherwise..... BIG GROAN

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...nd-killed.html
It's not really hard to see that those who are likely to be in danger are precisely the ones likely to seek to carry a gun.

"It would be impractical – not to say unethical – to randomly assign volunteers to carry a gun or not and see what happens."

Hmm. So they knew how to make the results scientific, but decided not to ending up with results that are worthless. I think the results would have been different had they taken a group of volunteers and assigned half with guns.

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But let's not forget that in Switzerland one sick individual could never get hold of 6000!!! rounds of ammo!
To be honest, I've gone through over 400 rounds in a single session at the shooting range. Anything beyond 400 doesn't really make much difference as you would hope any person out of control would be stopped way before he could use anywhere near 400 rounds in anger.
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Last edited by Phil_MCR; 23.07.2012 at 14:51.
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  #148  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:52
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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Hmm. So they knew how to make the results scientific, but decided not to ending up with results that are worthless. I think the results would have been different had they taken a group of volunteers and assigned half with guns.

Its easy of course to criticise studies and articles - but the hypothesis that America's gun control laws don't seem to be doing a great job of stopping gun crime seems pretty strong given the empirical data. So - maybe to turn it back to your point - do you have any data to support your claim that the cause of the gun murders is something else?
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  #149  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:53
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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I'm sure you can find some other forum where conspiracy theories built upon references to other conspiracy theories are welcome.
I could, but why should I? There is no point in arguing with people who agree with me.

Anyway: I have my opinions, you have yours! I have the right to my own just like you have the right to yours.

Regardless whether what you call "conspiracy theory" is true or not: I can not agree to limiting democracy and freedom of people by using FEAR. The limitless authority of the authorities exercised in the US is just disgusting.
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  #150  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:56
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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I can very much imagine you being a lunatic then
Maybe, but better than being blind.
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  #151  
Old 23.07.2012, 11:42
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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Its easy of course to criticise studies and articles - but the hypothesis that America's gun control laws don't seem to be doing a great job of stopping gun crime seems pretty strong given the empirical data. So - maybe to turn it back to your point - do you have any data to support your claim that the cause of the gun murders is something else?
There seems to be a gap between what you think gun control laws do and what they are intended to do.

In any case, there are existing laws against murder whatever weapon they are committed with.

The fact is that guns are already out there, whether you prevent the sale of one kind of gun or another, pretty much any gun will do the job of killing somebody.

The one alternative strategy I see as possible is the outright ban of guns together with a wholesale disarmament of the population and confiscation of personal weapons. Whether this would work is largely theoretical as the strategy is probably not practical and anyhow unconstitutional.

The gun debate is highly polarising and hotly debated, and there have been a number of examples and studies which have shown that gun ownership lowers crime.

In a sense, someone willing to break the law of murder is unlikely to stop murdering to follow a law prohibiting the ownership of firearms. Whereas the law-abiding are the ones who would be dis-armed.

A question being asked now is how many deaths would have been prevented had the people in that cinema been armed and able to stop the shooter?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/we...pagewanted=all

http://www.cato.org/publications/com...yths-realities
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  #152  
Old 23.07.2012, 11:45
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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A question being asked now is how many deaths would have been prevented had the people in that cinema been armed and able to stop the shooter?
If citizens have to walk around with loaded guns, then America has lost the plot. Your logic is as sick as the gunman.
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  #153  
Old 23.07.2012, 11:46
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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It's not so simple I'm afraid, gun ownership and gun crime does not correlate in industrialised countries. The US has a cultural violence problem that is exacerbated by the availability of guns. I do think some of the gun laws in the US ought to be changed, but that will not solve the underlying problems the US has.
I have found an excellent essay by Howard Smeade, Professor from the University of Maryland, analyzing the roots of violence in America.

http://www.howardsmead.com/why_we_am...so_violent.htm
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  #154  
Old 23.07.2012, 11:56
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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In a sense, someone willing to break the law of murder is unlikely to stop murdering to follow a law prohibiting the ownership of firearms. Whereas the law-abiding are the ones who would be dis-armed.
You see - when you try, you do come up with some interesting points to debate - that's a valid point that I hadn't really considered before

Better that than throwing red blobs around, huh?
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  #155  
Old 23.07.2012, 12:05
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

America doesn't need gun control.. it needs bullet control

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  #156  
Old 23.07.2012, 15:04
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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You see - when you try, you do come up with some interesting points to debate - that's a valid point that I hadn't really considered before

Better that than throwing red blobs around, huh?
"Ok. Go on then." is not a debate, it's just laziness.

I'm happy to have a rational discussion with people provided they think for themselves and can make their own arguments, educating themselves on some of the existing material out there is a plus!

Arguing for a total ban and confiscation is as useless as as arguing for mind-control which detects murderous intent and prevents the murderer at the critical moment - both are fantasy-land ideas.

Given the reality of the guns already in existence and in the hands of both criminals and the law-abiding, together with the rights enshrined in the constitution, people wanting to avoid deaths would be better to think of how to work with the reality of the situation rather than call for an outright ban which is both unworkable and by definition would put civilian guns only in the hands of criminals.
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  #157  
Old 23.07.2012, 15:12
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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Given the reality of the guns already in existence and in the hands of both criminals and the law-abiding, together with the rights enshrined in the constitution, people wanting to avoid deaths would be better to think of how to work with the reality of the situation rather than call for an outright ban which is both unworkable and by definition would put civilian guns only in the hands of criminals.
I would wonder if this is a reflection of reality. You seem to assume law abiding citizens and criminals to be 2 distinct groups, criminality almost seen as a profession. This is not the case, people are far more likely to fall to violence at the hands of people they know than to "criminals".
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  #158  
Old 23.07.2012, 15:21
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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I would wonder if this is a reflection of reality. You seem to assume law abiding citizens and criminals to be 2 distinct groups, criminality almost seen as a profession. This is not the case, people are far more likely to fall to violence at the hands of people they know than to "criminals".
well, there is a split to some degree. i've seen some statistics that 1 in 4 (maybe more now) of gun homicides are gang related. robberies are another big element, though i can't recall any statistics on that right now.
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Old 23.07.2012, 15:46
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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Given the reality of the guns already in existence and in the hands of both criminals and the law-abiding, together with the rights enshrined in the constitution, people wanting to avoid deaths would be better to think of how to work with the reality of the situation rather than call for an outright ban which is both unworkable and by definition would put civilian guns only in the hands of criminals.
I think that's the crucial point here. It's as useless for proponents of the right to carry guns to point to Switzerland as it is for the opponents to point to Australia, which apparently has one of the most restrictive gun access laws of the world.

You cannot reverse the prevalence of guns in the US, the only people who would willingly disarm are probably those least likely to abuse them. Nor can you reverse the US gun culture and its associated values.

Better ammunition control might be part of the solution, but I'm not sure if you want to create an ammo black market instead, as ammo can be relatively easily produced in any backyard factory.
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Old 23.07.2012, 16:12
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Re: At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater

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In a sense, someone willing to break the law of murder is unlikely to stop murdering to follow a law prohibiting the ownership of firearms. Whereas the law-abiding are the ones who would be dis-armed.
this is not entirely true. yes, a person who is already a criminal will likely not be deterred by an outright ban on gun ownership, but those people are not committing crimes with legally-owned and registered weapons anyway. for sure they are not carrying weapons on the street with the proper CCW or similar permit from the authorities.

the kind of horrific gun crimes that an outright ban would be more likely to prevent, however, would be exactly the ones that this thread is about.
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