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  #21  
Old 22.07.2012, 14:31
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Sure. Do you know what the average hungarian GDP is during that 20 year period?

I'll help you out - it's about 45 bln EUR per year. Which means, if the 242 bln figure is right that yearly tax evasion is 25% of GDP.

Again, excuse me while I ROFL.
1980-2010 includes the last years of communism and the transition period that followed. That's when both the old ruling caste and the new oligarchs did... how shall I put this... look after their own pension funds. What the (comparatively small-time) Hungarian crooks squirreled away was in all likelihood not included in official GDP figures. No different from Mafia and Camorra income in southern Italy, or from Russian oligarch profits in the 1990. Do you really think Abramovic et al. became as rich as they are through sheer honest capitalist graft, or even through good luck?

So, excuse me while I ROFLOL.
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Old 22.07.2012, 14:32
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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I don't know what she said as I don't personally respect her or regard her as someone especially significant except in the minds of some people who look back with rose-tinted specs and seem to think she was actually a great leader of the country, so please enlighten me.



Bad government planning, it's been happening for a while now apparently.
Knowing you're a big fan of Woman's Own magazine, I'd have thought you'd cherish the copy in which she gave an interview saying "there's no such thing as society"

I understand she later came to regret the remark, but damage done.
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Old 22.07.2012, 14:35
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Perhaps the Bros over at the think tank which correlated the stats can help you out. I didn't write the report

But: what if they're right?
Stats? Of what? Illegal money trasfers?
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Old 22.07.2012, 14:38
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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1980-2010 includes the last years of communism and the transition period that followed. That's when both the old ruling caste and the new oligarchs did... how shall I put this... look after their own pension funds. What the (comparatively small-time) Hungarian crooks squirreled away was in all likelihood not included in official GDP figures. No different from Mafia and Camorra income in southern Italy, or from Russian oligarch profits in the 1990. Do you really think Abramovic et al. became as rich as they are through sheer honest capitalist graft, or even through good luck?

So, excuse me while I ROFLOL.
Sure thing. Hungarian GDP in the 80 es was about 10bn GDP per year. Double it to say, i don't know, 20bn GDP of which 10 were..."squirreled away". Do you think 10bn worth of GDP can disappear like that in the communist 80es without anyone noticing?

In the 90es average GDP climbed slowly to about 20. Do you think the communist pensioners squirreled another 20 a year sight unseen?
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Old 22.07.2012, 14:41
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Stats? Of what? Illegal money trasfers?
Yeah, that.

I've no idea who moved what but am taking the numbers on face value; more interesting is the direction the money takes when it's 'optimised' here in Switzerland.

I didn't have much time for the Occupy movement's foot soldiers as their message was a garbled mess(age), but there's certainly a growing concern amongst ordinary Joes - especially in the UK - as to responsibility and accountability. The British Prime Minister has often stated that in these times of Austerity we are "All in it together" and such schemes are "morally repugnant" but perhaps we need to address the issues of why some are more in it than others...
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Old 22.07.2012, 14:48
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Knowing you're a big fan of Woman's Own magazine, I'd have thought you'd cherish the copy in which she gave an interview saying "there's no such thing as society"

I understand she later came to regret the remark, but damage done.
I think in that interview she spoke some good sense. In my view society as we know it is an artificial construct based on us having most if not all of what we need provided for us. The moment anything happens that causes us to not have what we need and to fight for what we can get, such as theoretical nuclear war (inser alternative mass-scale disaster here), and the resulting collapse of governments, then society will collapse and we will revert to what nature intended: hunt, gather, and look out for ourselves and our families at the expense of everyone else.

Anyway back to the topic, I fully believe that if the government had had that money throughout the last couple of decades that society would be no better, or social services no more improved than they are now... the extra money would be used by the government in whatever way it wanted... from war to its own projects... it doesn't automatically mean it would be used for the betterment of everyone else, or that the portion of it that was would make any real difference.

I'm not saying that the principle of it doing so isn't worth believing in, but I just don't think the reality for that basis exists.
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Old 22.07.2012, 15:01
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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I'm not saying that the principle of it doing so isn't worth believing in, but I just don't think the reality for that basis exists.
Scratch the surface of civilisation and you'll certainly see the Jungle emerge. Hence the need for a literate, informed electorate to empower political representatives to work towards a more socially just society. A race to the bottom of not giving a damn about your neighbours is the current situation, with the resulting "broken society" as oft mentioned in the UK.

Schools and social services are full of dedicated people trying to make a difference, yet in Britian male Black unemployment is over 50%.

Is nonchalance an option? Are we co-conspiring by assisting the tax avoiders' "professional enablers"? Will there be any left over Crispy Pork Belly this evening? ()
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Old 22.07.2012, 15:32
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Companies like Vodaphone paying 1% UK tax baffle people; they make Billions but court the revenue bigwigs to make sweetheart deals... meanwhile social services suffer for lack of funding.

What's going on?

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Bad government planning, it's been happening for a while now apparently.

Okay, so here is the problem I see with this laying it all at the feet of the government:

The money that companies like Vodaphone make, comes from the people in the first place. The idea behind taxes is that it's supposed to involve some back-and-forth, give-and-take. So, the people are giving and giving, with Vodaphone reaping the rewards, and they're taking alright, but the giving part is less than equitably reciprocal.

IF Vodaphone (and other similar companies making such strategic use of loopholes) were to consciously enact community programs they felt were worthy which were EQUAL to the amount that they'd otherwise pay in taxes, perhaps there would be less resentment from the people.

The benefit the people are supposed to receive from the taxes from the government is not being seen to properly, but the lack of proper allocation on the part of the government doesn't excuse lack of community involvement from the companies practicing such strategic financial maneuvers.

This is in the vein of "two wrongs don't make a right". I think it is completely irresponsible of whomever it was who made these loopholes possible. Just because there is more money involved doesn't mean it is less fair for the same percentage to be taken - it's not like the companies (or people) utilizing the loopholes are pulling the money out of thin air, they are taking it from other people. They should give back in some way too.
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  #29  
Old 22.07.2012, 15:35
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Scratch the surface of civilisation and you'll certainly see the Jungle emerge. Hence the need for a literate, informed electorate to empower political representatives to work towards a more socially just society. A race to the bottom of not giving a damn about your neighbours is the current situation, with the resulting "broken society" as oft mentioned in the UK.

Schools and social services are full of dedicated people trying to make a difference, yet in Britian male Black unemployment is over 50%.

Is nonchalance an option? Are we co-conspiring by assisting the tax avoiders' "professional enablers"? Will there be any left over Crispy Pork Belly this evening? ()

The problem with today's "society" (at least in Europe) is that very few of the tax revenue is actually put towards "building a society".
Do teachers get decent, yearly rises (because, AFAIK, pupils are getting harder to teach literally every year).
Does the police (=beat cops, not some anti-terror bullshit waste of money) get raises and more resources?
Only a tiny, teeny amount of each years budget goes into those sectors.
The rest is defense, "welfare" (which is good in theory, but in practice has become an industry of its own and also squanders a lot of money into dubious projects) - and interest for debt, of course.
It's obvious that everybody wants to pay into this system as little as possible - also because tax revenue often gets funneled into "prestige projects" that do little more than serving as a monument for the politician who started it (France is full of them) and adding to the overall debt.
(Just look how many indoor swimming pools exist in Germany (especially in the Eastern part))...
In Switzerland, at least, large projects go in front of the public vote. Locally, cantonal and country-wide.
And because people have the feeling that their taxes are put to good use, they are less likely to evade taxes.
If governments, like in Germany or the US, just try to improve tax-revenue by applying thumbscrews to tax-payers, the increase in revenue is usually only short-lived, while people and businesses seek a way around the laws.
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Old 22.07.2012, 18:26
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Where are you getting the figure from and does it matter the amount? Surely the principle that each pays a fair share is the route to genuine social justice? Without social justice, there'll be less chance of a peaceful society.

Companies like Vodaphone paying 1% UK tax baffle people; they make Billions but court the revenue bigwigs to make sweetheart deals... meanwhile social services suffer for lack of funding.

What's going on?
I made the figure up in my head, it's about 100 times what the average Swiss person will pay over their working life, sounds very unfair to me.

Whats described as Fair in taxpaying terms is rich people paying a higher percentage of their income, not just more tax, so 95% of people can pay less than their true cost of the services they receive.

1% tax of turnover is because they massivly overpaid for their 3G licenses & nearly bankrupted themselves in the process. Voderphone market cap has more than halved since 3G. 3G has not been a license to print money, if it was the shares would have more than doubled in 10 years rather than loosing value.

EDIT Interestingly a mod on the dying forum that can't be named posted the same story & nobody even replied, not enough trolls to have a conversation!

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Old 22.07.2012, 19:19
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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The problem with today's "society" (at least in Europe) is that very few of the tax revenue is actually put towards "building a society".
In these times, I'm certain most people involved in providing service to society - as opposed to those which exploit society in inappropriate ways - would be persuaded of the necessity of austerity measures so long as they ringfenced essential care; we're in the position that desperately needed provision is being pruned... and who pays? Mrs Miggins in her nursing home deserves more.

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Whats described as Fair in taxpaying terms is rich people paying a higher percentage of their income, not just more tax, so 95% of people can pay less than their true cost of the services they receive.
Is it acceptable and right a person on a low income pays the same percentage as an Oligarch? Conversely, ought an Oligarch pay the same as a welfare recipient?
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Old 22.07.2012, 19:30
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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Is it acceptable and right a person on a low income pays the same percentage as an Oligarch? Conversely, ought an Oligarch pay the same as a welfare recipient?
It would be totally fair! does that make it wrong or unacceptable?
Of course 'presonal allowances' that most tax systems have mean that even if there was only 1 tax rate the richer person will still pay a higher percentage of tax but not by very much.
Whats interesting is my income has halved since the recession, my tax take is so much lower, I really am not bothered by the loss of income.
If tax rates are low, tax revenues will increase allowing lower taxes for everybody, which seems good for everyone IMO.
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Old 23.07.2012, 10:02
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

The Times and The Independent both lead with the UK Revenue / HMRC prepared to "Name and Shame" Tax Avoiders. "Companies that run aggressive tax-avoidance schemes will be forced to provide the Government with details of all their celebrity and business clients under a crackdown to be announced today."

"Companies which fail to disclose the tax-avoidance schemes they run could also be "named and shamed" and face hefty fines – while the individuals behind them will be forced to take personal liability for promoting them."

"Under the proposals, the Treasury will extend the liability for mis-selling tax-avoidance schemes from companies to individuals. This will help where a firm is dissolved, or an individual promoter changes firm." (The Independent)

As Mr Bob Diamond, shamed ex boss of Barclays Bank said: "Business Culture: How people behave when no-one is watching"

Well they're beginning to watch now.

Aristotle suggested for Society to work we need citizens who live by the following virtues: Justice, Prudence, Temperance, Courage.

(Was it Thomas Aquinas who added Faith, Hope and Charity?)
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Old 23.07.2012, 10:27
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

I note also that 2 of the 3 biggest banking offenders for helping people offshore their assests and avoid tax are our very own Credit Suisse and UBS.

Still leading the world in tax evasion it seems
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Old 23.07.2012, 10:30
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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It would be totally fair! does that make it wrong or unacceptable?
Of course 'presonal allowances' that most tax systems have mean that even if there was only 1 tax rate the richer person will still pay a higher percentage of tax but not by very much.
Whats interesting is my income has halved since the recession, my tax take is so much lower, I really am not bothered by the loss of income.
If tax rates are low, tax revenues will increase allowing lower taxes for everybody, which seems good for everyone IMO.
Flat tax, replacing all other forms of taxation. All residents pay X% of their income, full stop. Fair, easy to administer.

Advantages:
  • No need for a big IRS or Revenue Service or whatever, as there are no loopholes to exploit
  • Could have a minimizing effect on tax dodging, as it doesn't matter which year you claim the revenue in, you're still going to pax that X%. You just need to write it such that all benefits received by an employee (i.e. company car, share options) are taxed the year they are realized.
  • Minimizes uncertainty - how many people do you know that fear tax return season? No need to worry, you know exactly what you owe all year long.

Probably others, too. Downside is that you put a lot of tax advisers and lawyers out of a job... but is that really a downside?
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Old 23.07.2012, 10:42
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Flat tax, replacing all other forms of taxation. All residents pay X% of their income, full stop. Fair, easy to administer.

Advantages:
  • No need for a big IRS or Revenue Service or whatever, as there are no loopholes to exploit
  • Could have a minimizing effect on tax dodging, as it doesn't matter which year you claim the revenue in, you're still going to pax that X%. You just need to write it such that all benefits received by an employee (i.e. company car, share options) are taxed the year they are realized.
  • Minimizes uncertainty - how many people do you know that fear tax return season? No need to worry, you know exactly what you owe all year long.

Probably others, too. Downside is that you put a lot of tax advisers and lawyers out of a job... but is that really a downside?
I think a flat tax is good for higher incomes. But, 15% of 30k is much more difficult to manage than 15% of 300k if you're supporting a family. I like progressive schemes at lower incomes, but simplified.
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Old 23.07.2012, 10:52
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

The $21 trillion came from some where, maybe some of it from holes in the ground in the DR Congo, owned by a Swiss company in Zug?

It has recently been stated that Africa's problems are due to their governments failing to tax companies. Big back handers are paid to the African governments, and the companies escape any normal taxation.
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Old 23.07.2012, 11:10
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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I think a flat tax is good for higher incomes. But, 15% of 30k is much more difficult to manage than 15% of 300k if you're supporting a family. I like progressive schemes at lower incomes, but simplified.
There has to be a high-enough minimum that is not taxed at all, of course.
And make no mistake, today's system of tax-returns and exceptions (exemplified by Germany's 500+ exceptions just for income tax) favors the rich more than the poor, too - the more you earn, the more you can write-off.

Politicians like high taxes for one simple reason: it gives them more money to redistribute to the voters.
As if government was the most efficient money-handler...
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Old 23.07.2012, 11:28
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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I qualified my statement by proposing a £20,000,000 / $ 30,000,000 lifetime limit per person, so that person has not really avoided his responsibility at all. Are you saying there is really any justification for paying more than $30,000,000 per person?
true, but i would question how this person earnt such a sum.

But a lot of the tax avoidance is being done by larger TNC companies. Recently a British Author wrote a book entitled "Tax Havens" it was an interesting read. I recommend it! (bit left though but still)
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Old 23.07.2012, 11:30
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Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

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The Times and The Independent both lead with the UK Revenue / HMRC prepared to "Name and Shame" Tax Avoiders. "Companies that run aggressive tax-avoidance schemes will be forced to provide the Government with details of all their celebrity and business clients under a crackdown to be announced today."

"Companies which fail to disclose the tax-avoidance schemes they run could also be "named and shamed" and face hefty fines – while the individuals behind them will be forced to take personal liability for promoting them."

"Under the proposals, the Treasury will extend the liability for mis-selling tax-avoidance schemes from companies to individuals. This will help where a firm is dissolved, or an individual promoter changes firm." (The Independent)

As Mr Bob Diamond, shamed ex boss of Barclays Bank said: "Business Culture: How people behave when no-one is watching"

Well they're beginning to watch now.

Aristotle suggested for Society to work we need citizens who live by the following virtues: Justice, Prudence, Temperance, Courage.

(Was it Thomas Aquinas who added Faith, Hope and Charity?)
The root of the problem in Britian is the City of London. Get rid of this weird body and its extra-terratorial privilidges and you would help solve the problem.
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