Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:49
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 13,577
Groaned at 269 Times in 175 Posts
Thanked 16,473 Times in 6,999 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

I'm less worried about companies that avoid tax, than wasteful governments that take tax and spend it on their own lavish benefits or on their favoured lobbyists.

Frankly, I'd be happy if we scrapped tax completely and people directly paid for services (bin collection, road use fees, health insurance).

Although tax has existed for the entire lifetime of everyone on this forum, it's worth noting that income tax was brought in only in 1799 as a way to pay for the war to beat Napoleon. It was meant to be a temporary measure, but well...
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 23.07.2012, 10:54
Uncle Max's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Züri
Posts: 7,582
Groaned at 171 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 8,424 Times in 3,486 Posts
Uncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond reputeUncle Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
...biggest banking offenders...
Quote:
View Post
...a lot of tax advisers and lawyers out of a job...
I believe the term is "Professional Enablers"...

Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 23.07.2012, 11:17
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA, former Zurich
Posts: 2,049
Groaned at 14 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 4,811 Times in 1,660 Posts
BokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond reputeBokerTov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
IF Vodaphone (and other similar companies making such strategic use of loopholes) were to consciously enact community programs they felt were worthy which were EQUAL to the amount that they'd otherwise pay in taxes, perhaps there would be less resentment from the people.

The benefit the people are supposed to receive from the taxes from the government is not being seen to properly, but the lack of proper allocation on the part of the government doesn't excuse lack of community involvement from the companies practicing such strategic financial maneuvers.
That would be nice. However, whether we like it or not, companies are not charities: their goal is to create value for their shareholders, punkt. Some companies see the marketing benefits of being involved with the community, have special programs, etc. I like that on a personal level, very much actually, however, that is NOT the primary goal of a company.

Quote:
View Post
The Times and The Independent both lead with the UK Revenue / HMRC prepared to "Name and Shame" Tax Avoiders. "Companies that run aggressive tax-avoidance schemes will be forced to provide the Government with details of all their celebrity and business clients under a crackdown to be announced today."

"Companies which fail to disclose the tax-avoidance schemes they run could also be "named and shamed" and face hefty fines – while the individuals behind them will be forced to take personal liability for promoting them."
What a load of populistic bollocks, excuse me. Using big headlines to impress discontented people to cover up for politicians' sc*ew ups!

I would like to see this list, and furthermore, to see a detailed list of HOW the companies in the list avoided taxes.

Let's not confuse apples and oranges here. Let's assume company A is in the UK, and following UK tax law. If company A engaged in ILLEGAL activities to avoid taxes, then sure, name and shame by all means, and let them pay what they owe. If, however, company A used all available LEGAL means, as described in the current and effective tax law, to optimize their taxes, can someone please explain to me why they should be named and shamed? For what, for following the tax law???

If you believe there are loopholes that you don't like, you (government) either change the law, or not, but "naming and shaming" companies that legally pay what they owe, and not one cent more, is nothing more than cheap populism. Always under the assumption of legality, of course.

Thank God there are countries like Switzerland that consider taxation as morally neutral! The day I see the tax returns of these politicians and the % they voluntarily donated to charities/community programs of their choice, that would be the day I might reconsider my positions. Until then, I just consider them nothing more than vote seekers - populism pays in times of economic distress.

I would be curious to see how many of the people who posted here would voluntarily increase their tax burden "for the benefit of society". Or is it just the big bad multinational companies who should do that? I am happy to pay what I owe, not more not less, support the causes that I deem worthy without being forced, and that's it. As I said, if you are a good soul, run a charity, not a corporation.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank BokerTov for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 23.07.2012, 11:55
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts
HoppSuisse has no particular reputation at present
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Switzerland is NOT a tax haven.

Switzerland has one of the highest tax rates in the world.
These Eastern Europe peoples (foreigners) are bringing their money to a nation that raises their tax level and they can not get any refund.
So why would they do this?
They do it because they are afraid of confiscation in their home nation, they are financial refugees.

The US is the largest tax haven in the world.
Foreigners (Swiss for example) can invest in US Banks and Stock Markets and NO tax will be withheld.
The US and UK have about 50% of the worlds off-shore financial market.

Banking Privacy is freedom and is a human right.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HoppSuisse for this useful post:
  #45  
Old 23.07.2012, 12:25
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 140
Groaned at 16 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 52 Times in 34 Posts
kimngmakerbull has no particular reputation at present
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

While I wont get into the argument about Suisse being a tax haven or not, Suisse probably has one of the largest capital flight money to customers ratio in the world.. While US may be the largest, the large number of customers makes it somewhat obscured that they have black money.. As they say, "the world sometimes looks not at the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog"..
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 23.07.2012, 12:36
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts
HoppSuisse has no particular reputation at present
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Additionally it must understood how the worlds banking/tax system works. The US Dollar (USD) is the worlds reserve currency, in order for nations to participate in the worlds banking system they must have a certain % of their currency backed by USD. The USD is a fiat currency (backed by nothing but good faith) when it is printed (created in any form even digital) it devalues all the USD already in existence. This is a TAX upon all of us as our CHF is devalued because it is backed (valued) by the reserve currency.

We are being taxed by the US!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank HoppSuisse for this useful post:
  #47  
Old 23.07.2012, 12:52
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,663
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
Flat tax, replacing all other forms of taxation. All residents pay X% of their income, full stop. Fair, easy to administer.
As Bill Clinton would have said... that depends on what you mean by "income".
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank dino for this useful post:
  #48  
Old 23.07.2012, 13:22
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts
HoppSuisse has no particular reputation at present
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
While I wont get into the argument about Suisse being a tax haven or not, Suisse probably has one of the largest capital flight money to customers ratio in the world.. While US may be the largest, the large number of customers makes it somewhat obscured that they have black money.. As they say, "the world sometimes looks not at the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog"..
The day of Banking Privacy is ending here in Suisse as foreign capital is fleeing by the billions to the east, Singapur, Dubai, Hong Kong, etc. How many thousands of workers did Credit Suisse release so far this year? And today we see a story explaining that the bankers are afraid they will be arrested when entering the US. No longer can they claim that their silence is demanded by law in Switzerland. Even the banks are turning lists of employees over to the US authorities.

Banking privacy (freedom) is being destroyed here and the world is quickly catching on that Switzerland is no longer safe.

We have betrayed our banking customers. It is the little guy that will suffer as the big companies and wealthy can afford to set up international trusts and other structures to protect their assets from confiscation.

The Swiss President has already called for us to change our laws to be like the US. In ignorance we will do it, we voted that we do not want referendum votes for international policy and treaty making. Just as we allowed the banks to break the laws on Banking Privacy we will in fear allow our own human rights to be destroyed.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank HoppSuisse for this useful post:
  #49  
Old 23.07.2012, 13:23
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 17,860
Groaned at 322 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 17,099 Times in 9,357 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
I think a flat tax is good for higher incomes. But, 15% of 30k is much more difficult to manage than 15% of 300k if you're supporting a family. I like progressive schemes at lower incomes, but simplified.
People earning 30k still have AHV deductions etc like everybody else, why should tax be any different? The rate would likely be far lower than 15%, a single person earning 100K in ZH and that will get yot to 15%, rather less for a couple.

There was a documentry that discussed a land tax of 6% a year & nothing else, the idea was that land should be used & not stcokpiled-
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank fatmanfilms for this useful post:
  #50  
Old 23.07.2012, 13:35
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
TEH SWITZERLAND IS VERY GOOD ALL THE REST IS EVIL, SHOUT, OUTRAGE!!
Sorry, I have a very hard time taking you seriously with that font, no offense.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 23.07.2012, 13:42
Mark75's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: by the lake (either one)
Posts: 2,511
Groaned at 45 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 3,136 Times in 1,363 Posts
Mark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond reputeMark75 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
It was meant to be a temporary measure, but well...
So was the Swiss Federal Income Tax (direkte Bundessteuer)...
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 23.07.2012, 13:44
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 9 Times in 5 Posts
HoppSuisse has no particular reputation at present
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, I have a very hard time taking you seriously with that font, no offense.
Somehow you quoted me but I did not write this.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 23.07.2012, 14:03
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
The $21 trillion came from some where, maybe some of it from holes in the ground in the DR Congo, owned by a Swiss company in Zug?

It has recently been stated that Africa's problems are due to their governments failing to tax companies. Big back handers are paid to the African governments, and the companies escape any normal taxation.
A bit like Switzerland then. Like in Vaud?
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 23.07.2012, 14:26
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,039
Groaned at 184 Times in 161 Posts
Thanked 17,339 Times in 7,050 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

So, $21 Trillion hidden. Assume a marginal tax rate of 30%, that's $6.3 Trillion that the various tax authorities around the world are missing.

According to here, for those countries listed, the total debt is $40 Trillion. I suppose it might help a bit then.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 23.07.2012, 14:31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 285
Groaned at 8 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 98 Times in 78 Posts
The Spartan has no particular reputation at present
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

I have no doubt that should they get their hands on it they'll just p*** it up against the wall like they always do. Makes me laugh seeing as these so called politicians were blatantly fiddling their expenses what a joke
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 23.07.2012, 14:36
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
So, $21 Trillion hidden. Assume a marginal tax rate of 30%, that's $6.3 Trillion that the various tax authorities around the world are missing.

According to here, for those countries listed, the total debt is $40 Trillion. I suppose it might help a bit then.
Haha not quite, that's 21trillion USD in capital hidden, not capital gain! Quite a difference, because with assumed average capital gain of 5% (quite optimistic in these dire times) there's "only" a remaining 1 trillion to tax from, at say a substantial rate of 25% that would just be enough be enough for Greece, if they stop spending at the current rate that is of course..




Just shows that the hollering about tax avoiders (most of which probably still pay millions each year to their state of residence) is mostly a convenient distraction from the various governments' shortcomings. I do not condone any illegal tax avoidance schemes and don't mind them getting caught either, but a transparent and effective tax system along with strictly controlled public finances would go a long way to get rid of the current impression of many that paying taxes is but a phenomenal waste of money to brush over problems in our societies.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 23.07.2012, 14:57
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: suburbs of LA, USA
Posts: 934
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 873 Times in 439 Posts
BrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
That would be nice. However, whether we like it or not, companies are not charities: their goal is to create value for their shareholders, punkt. Some companies see the marketing benefits of being involved with the community, have special programs, etc. I like that on a personal level, very much actually, however, that is NOT the primary goal of a company.



What a load of populistic bollocks, excuse me. Using big headlines to impress discontented people to cover up for politicians' sc*ew ups!

I would like to see this list, and furthermore, to see a detailed list of HOW the companies in the list avoided taxes.

Let's not confuse apples and oranges here. Let's assume company A is in the UK, and following UK tax law. If company A engaged in ILLEGAL activities to avoid taxes, then sure, name and shame by all means, and let them pay what they owe. If, however, company A used all available LEGAL means, as described in the current and effective tax law, to optimize their taxes, can someone please explain to me why they should be named and shamed? For what, for following the tax law???

If you believe there are loopholes that you don't like, you (government) either change the law, or not, but "naming and shaming" companies that legally pay what they owe, and not one cent more, is nothing more than cheap populism. Always under the assumption of legality, of course.

Thank God there are countries like Switzerland that consider taxation as morally neutral! The day I see the tax returns of these politicians and the % they voluntarily donated to charities/community programs of their choice, that would be the day I might reconsider my positions. Until then, I just consider them nothing more than vote seekers - populism pays in times of economic distress.

I would be curious to see how many of the people who posted here would voluntarily increase their tax burden "for the benefit of society". Or is it just the big bad multinational companies who should do that? I am happy to pay what I owe, not more not less, support the causes that I deem worthy without being forced, and that's it. As I said, if you are a good soul, run a charity, not a corporation.
Companies are organizations designed to make profits, agree with that 100pc. The bigger problem has become companies shifting profits LEGALLY from one country to another. Through the supply chain, patents, or other methods you move the profits from a high tax country to a low tax country. They all do it, its their responsibilities to the shareholders and also how else could they fund their massive bonuses. Governments need to come up with smarter laws and then do they have the balls to do this to the big multinationals that at least in the US are contributing lots of dollars to campaign coffers.

Maybe an alternative minimum tax on revenue? You either pay the corporate income tax due or 2 percent of turnover? If you can't make a business return greater than 2 percent of turnover you probably should give up anyway.

Individuals also do the same thing moving their assets offshore. But there is a level of pain we are all willing to accept and a level we are all going to start looking to avoid. Countries like France that just think we are in the popper lets increase the marginal tax rate to 50 plus percent and tax the rich and of course a certain amount of people who have the means will legally look to avoid the taxes, and at those rates I would as well.

Governments also need to pull their belts and make the changes of the downturn. Of course public servants dont like this as they are then in jeopardy of losing their jobs and they are also voters.

In my opinion income tax rates for individuals dont need to increase (most cases), but capturing the true income generated in the country by corporations shifting profits is a big issue. Also agree their are too many concessions/ complications keeping enablers in jobs. Capital Gains taxes and taxes on received dividends also need looking at in regards concessions for the rich (USA).
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 23.07.2012, 15:04
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: suburbs of LA, USA
Posts: 934
Groaned at 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 873 Times in 439 Posts
BrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond reputeBrianJW has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
Haha not quite, that's 21trillion USD in capital hidden, not capital gain! Quite a difference, because with assumed average capital gain of 5% (quite optimistic in these dire times) there's "only" a remaining 1 trillion to tax from, at say a substantial rate of 25% that would just be enough be enough for Greece, if they stop spending at the current rate that is of course..
Cant really say what came first, avoided tax then hide it away, or hide it away and watch it grow. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank BrianJW for this useful post:
  #59  
Old 23.07.2012, 15:42
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
Cant really say what came first, avoided tax then hide it away, or hide it away and watch it grow. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
True of course. But my point was that capital gains are (usually) taxed, not capital itself. You're not losing 20% of your wealth per year, that would be absurd.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 23.07.2012, 16:03
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 13,577
Groaned at 269 Times in 175 Posts
Thanked 16,473 Times in 6,999 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: $21Trillion: hoard hidden from taxman by global elite

Quote:
View Post
Companies are organizations designed to make profits, agree with that 100pc. The bigger problem has become companies shifting profits LEGALLY from one country to another. Through the supply chain, patents, or other methods you move the profits from a high tax country to a low tax country.

In my opinion income tax rates for individuals dont need to increase (most cases), but capturing the true income generated in the country by corporations shifting profits is a big issue. Also agree their are too many concessions/ complications keeping enablers in jobs. Capital Gains taxes and taxes on received dividends also need looking at in regards concessions for the rich (USA).
If countries want to attract investment, then they will need to compete with these low tax countries and lower taxes and become more efficient. Trying to stop companies going to a better country is akin to an employer trying to stop employees going to a better employer by trying to pass slavery laws - the way ahead is to compete and become efficient, not to try to rig the situation to support your own inefficiency and lack of competitiveness.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
tax, tax avoidance, tax dodgers, tax justice network, the guardian, the observer




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
$600 Million missing from MF Global's books... dino International affairs/politics 8 22.12.2011 10:31
Global Family Moving from The Hague to Basel/French Border ThirdCultureKidsMummy Introductions 6 17.05.2011 19:25
Occasionally renting out a spare room... private matter or one for the taxman? Rach_UK Housing in general 6 02.05.2011 12:51
Hidden speed camera - road from Raten nr Zug WelshBoyo Transportation/driving 37 16.10.2009 16:53


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0