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  #101  
Old 31.07.2012, 08:05
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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I am 100% for wind and solar energy. But honestly is this point so wrong that in fact the opposite is true - you do not simply put a windmill next to a factory )
It doesnt need to be next to the factory,50 km distance is still condidered as local.also you should consider other altetnatives as well like rooftop solar panels.does my point still sound incorrect?

Last edited by Dark Blue; 31.07.2012 at 08:32. Reason: typos
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  #102  
Old 31.07.2012, 10:48
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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It doesnt need to be next to the factory,50 km distance is still condidered as local.also you should consider other altetnatives as well like rooftop solar panels.does my point still sound incorrect?
Yes.



.
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  #103  
Old 31.07.2012, 10:50
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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Yes.



.
Good then! Keep thinking that way. There isn't anything I can do for you.
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  #104  
Old 31.07.2012, 11:29
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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I am 100% for wind and solar energy. But honestly is this point so wrong that in fact the opposite is true - you do not simply put a windmill next to a factory - you put a windmill in an offshore park where the wind blows. Since you will end up with a much large number of much smaller power generators of various kinds... and those produce their power whenever the sun shines or the wind blows... will you end up with a great challenge to make sure that everyone gets enough electricity when and where they need it. That was the key point the politicians overlooked for example in Germany - after two decades of subsidies in windparks and the decision to switch off a number of older nuclear power plants - was the grid not strong enough to deal with it.
Actually, they did know. You can go back twenty years and read white papers that were written back then and experts were already talking about the grid and what would have to be doine to it to integrate renewables. They even drew up maps showing where new lines would have to be built. It was the governmment that preferred to ignore the experts and put all the money into the actual windmills as they are more visible and hence better publicity. The concept of "smart grid" isn't new either. People in the industry have been talking about this since at least the 1950s. They didn't call it smart grid back then, but all the main concepts and ideas where already there.
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  #105  
Old 31.07.2012, 11:49
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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It doesnt need to be next to the factory,50 km distance is still condidered as local.also you should consider other altetnatives as well like rooftop solar panels.does my point still sound incorrect?
Wind conditions don't change signifiocantly over 50km. We are talking about transmissions of hundreds and sometimes even thousands of kilometres. We are talking about windmills in the North Sea supplying power to factories in Stuttgart and Munich. We are talking about massive solar plants (not PV but thermal) in the Sahara and subsea cables under the Mediterranean. All this has huge potential.

Look for example at this map:



You see that big red square in Africa. If you stick CSP plants on that area, they will generate sufficient power to feed not just Africa, not just Europe, but the world. Of course nobody in their mind would do that precisely there, but if you split that area and transfer a bit to Arizona, a bit to Australia, a bit to China etc, you can cover the world's energy needs with solar power. And of course there will still always be other sources of power. In principle it is all doable. There are some technical challenges but nothing that cannot be solved. And if we sent a man to the moon, this should be easy in comparison. And because, if we look just at Europe, the plants will be in the same time zone, there will be more generation during the day, matching the higher consumption. Also, because it's not photovoltaic but thermal, the generation doesn't stop the moment the sun goes down but the system will keep on running all night with stored heat. Because there are turbines and not just panels, they have rotating masses that can absorb short-term fluctuations in demand without causing blackouts. Being thermal and turbine-based, you can also have feed-in and feed out of steam, so a local industry that needs steam can get it dirtectly, or a local industry or power polant that generates surplus steam can feed it in. In fact the more you think about it, the more you see how great it is.

All this is so incredible mind boggling that photovoltaics in comparison are a bit of waste of time and resources. Once this thing goes commercial, photovoltaics will be yesterday's toys. The Sahara gets so much sun and so reliably that commercialising our own poor and unreliable sunlight is just pointless except maybe for special applications.

But until all this goes online, we have to bridge the gap. Photovoltaics are not going to do that and neither is wind, at least not on a sufficient scale. The bulk of energy in the interim must thus come either from coal or from nuclear and for me nuclear is just clearly the lesser of the two evils.
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  #106  
Old 31.07.2012, 12:18
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

Amogles, I agree with you. My comment with "50 km." was just to say that it is absurd to picture a windmill next to every factory and household.

As much as I support your opinion on the projects like Desertec, I would not scrap PVs just yet. Their potential is yet to be achieved. Even though using turbines has its advantages, you can not build them in every building. Your map shows the areas where you can build this massive solar projects. However, imagine the amount of energy produced from roof top panels and nano technological PVs integrated in painted surfaces in each and every building in the world. I wouldn't really scap this potential. The quantity per each home may be small but in total the potential is just immense.

Since we need every kw of energy, I think we should support these potentials as well.

However, this potential will not be reached tomorrow. We are talking about 20 years may be more. I explained my road in one of my previous posts. If we still come across to energy shortages after renewing all the transmission lines, furnishings the old plants and kicking everbody' asses who waste precious energy by not turning of their computers, leaving the office lights on during the night times (sorry they just drive me crazy), then I would only consider the new plants. Again my choice would not be the nuclear but rather highly efficient and flexible combined cycle plants.
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  #107  
Old 31.07.2012, 21:50
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

I anxiously await the day that this thread is merged into the thread about the 600 million people in India who are without power.
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  #108  
Old 29.12.2012, 01:27
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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About "It emits practically no green house gases "
True but quite a lot is generated by the building process & materials required.
Like anyone can build power plants without generating any waste? If not, what's your point?
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  #109  
Old 29.12.2012, 03:48
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

Don't forget, this is China----They are also planning almost 400 new Coal Burning plants. Kinda makes any new Hydro/Wind/Solar attempts environmentally irrelevant.
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  #110  
Old 29.12.2012, 13:32
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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Like anyone can build power plants without generating any waste? If not, what's your point?
My point is that you have to look at the whole thing & its total impact on the environment, not just the end result.
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  #111  
Old 29.12.2012, 15:26
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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Don't forget, this is China----They are also planning almost 400 new Coal Burning plants. Kinda makes any new Hydro/Wind/Solar attempts environmentally irrelevant.
To be fair do they need those plants to produce all the stuff we so desperately want to buy... and secretely are we probably all happy if the coal is burnt in some far away city in a far away country instead of the industrial cities we used to have in Europe... like Winterthur. Because we only care about things we can see - our global atmosphere is something far too intangible to understand for an average primate like us.
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  #112  
Old 29.12.2012, 17:20
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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To be fair do they need those plants to produce all the stuff we so desperately want to buy... and secretely are we probably all happy if the coal is burnt in some far away city in a far away country instead of the industrial cities we used to have in Europe... like Winterthur. Because we only care about things we can see - our global atmosphere is something far too intangible to understand for an average primate like us.

Oh I definitely agree, as an Engineer, I accept the present opportunity cost over the 'potential' centenarian effects. Just wanted to point out that we should step back at praising them with the whole enviro-circlejerk and note it's true irrelevance beyond how the media decides to spin it.
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  #113  
Old 29.12.2012, 17:27
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

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To be fair do they need those plants to produce all the stuff we so desperately want to buy... and secretely are we probably all happy if the coal is burnt in some far away city in a far away country instead of the industrial cities we used to have in Europe... like Winterthur. Because we only care about things we can see - our global atmosphere is something far too intangible to understand for an average primate like us.
The Chinese have become massive consumers too, especially of Western luxury items. During the Boxing Day sales in London, many of the shoppers at the front of the queues were Chinese tourists.

The Chinese are well aware of the effects of coal burning power plants on the atmosphere as they go about their lives wearing smog masks, and some are so used to it that they continue wearing a mask even when on holidays abroad.
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  #114  
Old 09.01.2013, 12:54
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

In reality, the hype should be going to China for making steps to introduce nuclear power from thorium. There is a realistic future power source.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...m-thorium.html
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  #115  
Old 09.01.2013, 13:22
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Re: World's largest hydropower project goes fully operational ( China )

Tuna are pretty much at the top of the natural food chain, I would have thought. The only stuff that eats tuna besides humans is sharks, dolphins and whales.

And besides which, just because somebody has found radioactive tuna, doesn't prove that this has anything to do with the tsunami that hit Fukushima, other than the circumstance that people have started measuring the radioactivity of fish after that incident. There are countless sources of radioactivity out there, many of them natural. Bananas and Brazil nuts are pretty radioactive too. Even granite is radioactive. Think about that next time you're in Zermatt or in Edinburgh. Are we going to blame that on Tepco any time soon?



Either the stuff is highly radioactive, which means it shoots off all its radioactivity very quickly, meaning you shouldn't come near it for a couple of years but after that it's more or less cold and dead (all the elements around us started that way, we live on a planet made entirely of the trash left behind by nuclear decay), or it has long half-lives (like the aforementioned granite) meaning it goes on and on and on but at very low levels. You can't have it both ways. Enegry is finite and at some point it runs out, even in radioactivity.
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