Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06.08.2012, 07:19
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: DK - previously Zug
Posts: 3,321
Groaned at 168 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 6,707 Times in 2,237 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

The quality of insight in some of these posts is unmatched - I wish I had your deep and intuitive understanding of events I know nothing about, people.

"The man was white, therefore it must be a hate crime." Wow. Let's go for all-in racism on that one.

"I hope Americans learn from this that whites are just as capable of being terrorists." Are you an idiot, or just willfully ignorant? The unabomber, Oklahoma City bombings, whatever - there are plenty examples of homegrown white terrorists that you can use as an example, and of which we are all aware. Perhaps you're too young to have watched TV in the 90s, though, so you might not have known those very famous examples. Fortunately (and I use that word only in context of my point here), there was an example in Colorado just a few weeks ago of a white guy shooting up a Batman showing, so you really ought to know that Americans are perfectly aware that white people kill too.

Lejoker, you're just trying to stir the pot. Not really worth commenting.

And Assassin, your posts are usually pretty good, but even just a few weeks ago in the thread on the batman shooting, we addressed the subject of European gun crime. Y'all way outdid Americans last year in Norway, and you've had a few others across the continent too. It's not solely an American problem, that's clear - though it's a larger problem on the other side of the pond, that's also clear.

There, got it off my chest. You folks can now return to building your soapboxes atop the latest tragedy.
__________________
I'm likely typing from an iPad. Please disregard odd word usage.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank Corbets for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Corbets for this post:
  #22  
Old 06.08.2012, 07:23
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
I only hope that this will prove to Americans that whites are equally as capable of being "terrorists."
No shit... (but on a side note were the German RAF or the IRA way better organized than those Muslims ever will be. I think its cultural... )

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 06.08.2012, 08:37
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,023
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,560 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Morning Corbets, hate to have you think standards are dropping around here. It's always been a cauldron of bubbling insights, star posts and stupidity IMO.

I've never changed my opinion on firearms, wherevever incidents occur. Do I believe that lax gun control is a contributory factor to multiple deaths when some lunatic flips out? Absolutely. With all respect, there will continue to be days when some people just "snap out of control" and live out some sick fantasy or bloodlust for whatever psychotic reason, but put any kind of firearm in their hands and the body count increases disproportionally. Breivik wouldn't have killed as many with a bread knife and the next crazed murderer in some Amercian schoolyard won't be able to hurt more than a few people if he (inevitably not a a she) was dependent on using his hands.

Let me be clear on this. If I wanted to create the highest body count, I'd be looking for explosives and automatic weapons. It's time to take away the tools of death, because we can't expect lunatics to change their mindless and senseless urges.
__________________
Crash your karma into little bits of happiness
Reply With Quote
The following 14 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:06
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
Or a disciple of the late Indira Ghandi?

Indira Ghandi, one of the greatest statesmen ever, was tolerant, and NOT anti-Muslim.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:28
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,619
Groaned at 416 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 17,920 Times in 5,540 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Good debate, Corbets and Assassin.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:31
JamesAG's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Schliengen, Germany
Posts: 217
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 302 Times in 120 Posts
JamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputation
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

I was shocked to hear about this shooting, because I know several Sikhs and they really are some of the most peaceful and friendly people I know.

And I certainly can understand how the typical mis-informed, FOX-news-fed redneck could confuse Sikhs with Shia Muslems, because, yea, both are "A-rabs" from the redneck perspective.

Gun control? Yes, that might reduce some forms of crime like car-jackings, spontaneous murders, etc. But someone like the guy in Colorado or this guy in the Temple - if their attack was planned, they'll use whatever weapon is available. If there was no guns available, they would have likely built explosives - there are instructions available on the 'net how to build a grenade in a can. The chemicals are not always easy to get, but with a bit of determination, it's certainly possible. Plus, think of all of the suicide bombers in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc ...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JamesAG for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:40
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,619
Groaned at 416 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 17,920 Times in 5,540 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
If there was no guns available, they would have likely built explosives - there are instructions available on the 'net how to build a grenade in a can. The chemicals are not always easy to get, but with a bit of determination, it's certainly possible.
1. Not all whackos are intelligent enough to build explosives.
2. Too many gun accidents happen not to warrant more gun control.
3. Guns are allowed with minimum requirements because ???????????

I'm feeling for the Sikh community right now. Living in fear in the US is not the American dream.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:46
Occasional_Canadian's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dubi
Posts: 735
Groaned at 21 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,593 Times in 591 Posts
Occasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
Indira Ghandi, one of the greatest statesmen ever, was tolerant, and NOT anti-Muslim.
She was, however, autocratic, corrupt, and willing to take harsh actions against her own citizens if she felt that such action was dictated - the Sikhs who assassinated her were nationalists outraged over the Golden Temple issue.

I was a kid at school in Delhi when she was shot, spent a week curfewed in under martial law while the mob rampaged and the city burned... as we sheltered our Sikh next-door neighbours. It was an intense way to learn that the currents run very deep throughout Indian society, though they are not always apparent at first.

That said, I think that this had nothing at all to do with Indira, and everything to do with a confused white supremacist and an attempted Ramadan attack.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Occasional_Canadian for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:47
JamesAG's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Schliengen, Germany
Posts: 217
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 302 Times in 120 Posts
JamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputation
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
1. Not all whackos are intelligent enough to build explosives.
2. Too many gun accidents happen not to warrant more gun control.
3. Guns are allowed with minimum requirements because ???????????

I'm feeling for the Sikh community right now. Living in fear in the US is not the American dream.
1) True. Or they will blow themselves up while mixing the chemicals, solving two problems at once.

2) I actually support gun control. While I understand that shooting (targets) can be fun, there is really no need for most people to own or carry a firearm. And many of the people in the US who carry their weapons are not trained or prepared to actually use it safely. Even the police, who are subject to constant training, have been known to "choke" at the critical moment.

3) As much as I want to disagree, there IS a need for hunting in order to keep the population of certain animals in check. Without hunters, the population of wild boars, hares and deer would grow to a point that their environment can no longer support it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JamesAG for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:51
Occasional_Canadian's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dubi
Posts: 735
Groaned at 21 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,593 Times in 591 Posts
Occasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
1)3) As much as I want to disagree, there IS a need for hunting in order to keep the population of certain animals in check. Without hunters, the population of wild boars, hares and deer would grow to a point that their environment can no longer support it.
That's a good argument for long guns - I get a little wiggy in places with concealed carry handguns.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06.08.2012, 09:55
JamesAG's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Schliengen, Germany
Posts: 217
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 302 Times in 120 Posts
JamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputation
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
That's a good argument for long guns - I get a little wiggy in places with concealed carry handguns.
You and I both.

As I said, I can see the need for a shotgun or a single-action rifle for hunting. I don't see the need for a civilian to carry a handgun or an automatic weapon. This is also what makes me a bit squeamish when I see what looks like teenagers riding their bikes through Basel with an attack rifle on their backs...
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:04
dino's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,631
Groaned at 31 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 1,279 Times in 628 Posts
dino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond reputedino has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
Indira Ghandi, one of the greatest statesmen ever, was tolerant, and NOT anti-Muslim.
no comments on her states(wo)manship... but her name was spelled "Gandhi".
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank dino for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:25
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
.

And Assassin, your posts are usually pretty good, but even just a few weeks ago in the thread on the batman shooting, we addressed the subject of European gun crime. Y'all way outdid Americans last year in Norway, and you've had a few others across the continent too.
I did not know there was a competition? Corbets I am surprised at your post!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,983
Groaned at 69 Times in 52 Posts
Thanked 5,074 Times in 1,802 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

we Americans continue to misread the 2nd Amendment, and our culture of gun ownership has long-since passed the point of national embarrassment. unfortunately, thanks to Scalia and the Supreme Court, it will take forever for the pendulum to swing back toward any sense of reason.

this incident without question is horrific, and I cannot even begin to imagine the pain and grief that the folks involved must be struggling with. I have to confess, however, that it is intriguing to me that the "unnamed" investigators would treat a 9/11 tattoo as indicating "white supremacy". I'm just not sure how it is possible that we, as a country,could spend over 10 years and billions of dollars chasing people (and in many cases killing them) and over-throwing governments as a result of the 9/11 tragedy, and yet a single US military veteran with a 9/11 tattoo is immediately branded a "supremacist". I guess I just don't have the kryptonite for that kind of logic.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:37
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,023
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,560 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

There's a gun culture in the USA that no one can wish away. Try thinking of mainstream Hollywood movies or TV series that don't in some way glamorize firearms. If you have a "family entertainment" flick, then the bullets tend to graze or injure. Mr & Mrs Jones for example, thousands or rounds fired, destruction, but no one really gets hurt. Teenage shows like the A-Team or crap of that ilk, everyone touting weapons that rarely actually killed anyone or reflected the pain and anguish with actual victims, just this self-created imagery of power and sexiness whilst brandishing some sleek piece of armor that spewed out lead cutting down the bad guys.

Well, the bubble burst a long time ago. There is no glamor in weaponry. It's a tool, a means to a clear ending and as factual as it is that law enforcement and the military need to fulfill their duty, these killing appliances have no rightful place in the hands of your average John Public. Bank robberies are never instigated with robbers armed with cheese wire, they carry firearms to create fear, to enforce their will and also (I'm guessing here) because they've taken into account that they might also be met with force.

Only when America leads the way in controlled personal disarmament will we see an end to double digit body counts in the cities and neighborhoods.
__________________
Crash your karma into little bits of happiness
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:43
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
2) I actually support gun control.
I fully support gun control, but I have not the slightest idea why the topic always pops up after some guy intentionally ran amok. The gun control laws make it harder for the average Joe to have one, so some spontaneous shootings and family dramas will decrease sharply. But if some nutter really wants to kill himself and take some lives on the way - you will have a hard time stopping him. Where there is a demand is a market and if I really want to can I get in most countries an illegal gun faster and cheaper than a controlled one. Furthermore does a control not mean ban. Example: There is gun control in Norway. Recording his passport number when issuing his license did not stop Breivik from shooting 70 kids with completely legal and controlled guns... and the required shooting lessons before he was allowed to get a pistol did not stop him either.

Gun control makes sure that only people who have no significant criminal records get them and in some cases that people need to show that they got themselves the safety training for it - nothing more. They will never stop organized crime, let alone terrorists or crazy people.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:49
SignLanguageMama's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Schaffhausen
Posts: 104
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 162 Times in 66 Posts
SignLanguageMama is considered knowledgeableSignLanguageMama is considered knowledgeableSignLanguageMama is considered knowledgeable
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

It's not just in tv and movies, either. Gun culture is prevalent in the myriad video games parents allow their young kids to play and it gives them a feeling of invincibility. I taught several high school boys who enlisted and were thrilled when they were chosen to be snipers "because it will be just like ABC video game". These are the same kids who later would write letters home sounding amazed and confused that their friends actually got injured by gunfire
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank SignLanguageMama for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:49
Occasional_Canadian's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dubi
Posts: 735
Groaned at 21 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,593 Times in 591 Posts
Occasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
I fully support gun control, but I have not the slightest idea why the topic always pops up after some guy intentionally ran amok. The gun control laws make it harder for the average Joe to have one, so some spontaneous shootings and family dramas will decrease sharply. But if some nutter really wants to kill himself and take some lives on the way - you will have a hard time stopping him.
[...]

They will never stop organized crime, let alone terrorists or crazy people.
Well said - I think the issue isn't the gun laws, it's the gun culture (as has been noted above by Assassin). Lots and lots of guns where I grew up, never worried - ever - about getting shot unless I went in the woods around hunting season with no blaze orange (and a rack of antlers strapped to my head).

Guns just weren't generally thought of as something you used to shoot people, or to defend yourself from being shot.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Occasional_Canadian for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 06.08.2012, 11:59
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,335
Groaned at 149 Times in 105 Posts
Thanked 9,295 Times in 3,534 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
Well said - I think the issue isn't the gun laws, it's the gun culture (as has been noted above by Assassin). Lots and lots of guns where I grew up, never worried - ever - about getting shot unless I went in the woods around hunting season with no blaze orange (and a rack of antlers strapped to my head).

Guns just weren't generally thought of as something you used to shoot people, or to defend yourself from being shot.
And that is the way it should be, cars are not considered weapons and yet they kill more than all the guns in private households ever will.
Something must have changed, skewed the perspective to firearms so to speak.
In my opinion after the Brady-bill passed it seems to have polarized society and brought guns to the public radar, I wonder if there is any statistics showing before the bill and after.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06.08.2012, 12:07
Occasional_Canadian's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dubi
Posts: 735
Groaned at 21 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,593 Times in 591 Posts
Occasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond reputeOccasional_Canadian has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Shooting at Sikh temple in USA

Quote:
View Post
Something must have changed, skewed the perspective to firearms so to speak.
No idea what the catalyst was, but the gun lobby definitely pulled away from the hunting and sporting argument and is leaning hard on the personal defence argument these days - very prevalent around the licensing/CCW debate.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gunman, sikh, temple, usa, wisconsin




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
At least 20 wounded in shooting at Colorado movie theater cdcdoc International affairs/politics 161 31.07.2012 00:07
England v USA at Landesmuseum Paulie707 Social events 43 15.06.2010 01:36
Chinese/Taoist Buddhist Temple in CH yuhu Other/general 2 22.03.2010 21:59
Address & Map to ISKON temple in Zurich Pavan30 Other/general 1 03.02.2008 01:31


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0