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View Poll Results: What is your opinion today on Gun Control Laws in the US?
It is an important part of what makes America - no change needed 19 31.15%
I always though it should be kept - but not sure after recent events 2 3.28%
I used to think it was OK - but I have changed my mind 1 1.64%
If something very bad happens - we should change the law 2 3.28%
I never thought it was appropriate and wish US was gun-free 37 60.66%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old 15.08.2012, 23:16
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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You are welcome not to own a gun if you understand yourself to have an unhealthy relationship/obsession with them.

However, if you vote according to this professed belief, thereby instructing the police to use their own guns to force your personal beliefs onto other citizens, then please remember to wipe the blood of minorities like this fellow off of your hands before you dine.

http://www.thelocal.ch/page/view/gan...ioner-to-death
If your looking for news reports to back your argument. Never ever use the local to back them up. The village is wrong, the victim was swiss, the attackers were of Sri Lankan/tibetan origin and there's a good possibility that they already knew each other which takes quite alot of the emotion of your post.....


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I basically defend your right to own your arsenal. But this is not the question. The question is whether you really will have your weapon ready when needed and will shoot faster and better than a potential attacker. This question remains valid even when you tell me that you were ..... and participated in ..... and attend a weekly training nearby.
I would also add to this if you shoot an intruder your likely to go to jail. This ain't Florida. Even if in the worst case some dude enters your home just to attack you unless he is armed with a gun, it is likely that shooting the guy to death will be seen as over the top. There was a case a few months back where a daughter shot her bodybuilding, doped, violent father. She had to prove that her life was in danger not that she felt her life was in danger. If she knew, she was only gonna get beat up then she would've went to jail as the courts would have found she used excessive force to defend herself.
She got off because he has previously been violent against her and his wife, his drugs made him unpredictable, he was so much bigger than her and had previously threatened to kill her. She also had to justify why she didn't give any warning shots and had to answer the accusation that she contributed to the escalation of the argument by giving him back chat. That's an indication of how high the level is before deadly force is accepted here.

I also agree with Wolli that if you want a gun for self-defence your gonna need to keep it in an easy to get to place, unlocked and loaded. Personally I'll take my chances against unknown intruders rather than taking the chances of some child who comes to my place finding it and shooting itself or someone else. Plus I'm not sure how favourable the police would be should you get broke into while away which is far more likely and that gun was used in a crime.

In saying that I don't think the gun laws are responsible for the shootings. Looking from the outside though I think the mentality of many in the States who want guns seems to be slightly paranoid. Here every male is given a gun to protect the country against foreign forces. In the states it seems to be that one wants a gun to defend oneself against the Government and to defend oneself against any fantasy intruders or potential mass murderers like the guy who brought a bag full of ammo and weapons to the cinema to 'protect himself and innocent bystanders' This suspicion and distrust of the government of your neighbours surely can't be good for society as a whole?
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  #122  
Old 15.08.2012, 23:17
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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I lived in the US and have never heard of someone randomly breaking in to harm someone they dont know. I didn't need a gun to sleep at night.

They might have a gun, and they might want to rob you, but Ive never heard of random attacks just for the hell of it.

Doesn't change the self defense argument either but if people are attacking other people just because ....... then the USA has even bigger issues than I gave it credit for.
Unfortunately this happens very often. Large metropolitan areas are the worst and the small rural communities are less prone to these random acts but it still happens on occasion.
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  #123  
Old 15.08.2012, 23:22
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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I basically defend your right to own your arsenal. But this is not the question. The question is whether you really will have your weapon ready when needed and will shoot faster and better than a potential attacker. This question remains valid even when you tell me that you were ..... and participated in ..... and attend a weekly training nearby.
Yes I will, as have many other armed homeowners. This also happens very often.
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  #124  
Old 16.08.2012, 00:02
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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I would also add to this if you shoot an intruder your likely to go to jail. This ain't Florida.
I don't think that anyone in this discussion is confusing Florida with ZUG I believe that the discussion so far has been about America, and what motivates Americans, why doesn't America enact stricter gun control laws etc.

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I also agree with Wolli that if you want a gun for self-defence your gonna need to keep it in an easy to get to place, unlocked and loaded. Personally I'll take my chances against unknown intruders rather than taking the chances of some child who comes to my place finding it and shooting itself or someone else. Plus I'm not sure how favourable the police would be should you get broke into while away which is far more likely and that gun was used in a crime.
If you will take a look at the links in my previous post, you will see multiple examples of where people (in America) defended themselves successfully during home invasions, often after locking themselves in an interior room, calling the police, and repeatedly warning their assailant, "I've called the police, and I have a gun."

I completely agree that any weapon (and a great many other dangerous objects) should be safely out of the reach of children. The photo below is of a biometric locking gun safe which serves this purpose nicely.
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  #125  
Old 16.08.2012, 00:29
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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it's too late for the US, the number of guns already in circulation make it impossible for the gov to legiferate and change anything.
In the name of the free market, USA corp is killing its citizens with "sacred" american guns just like american food.
Actually, the guns in question are typically AK-47 rifles and Glock or Sig Saur high capacity 9mm pistols....All made in Europe. You might want to rethink that "USA Corp." comment
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  #126  
Old 16.08.2012, 00:32
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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Actually, the guns in question are typically AK-47 rifles and Glock or Sig Saur high capacity 9mm pistols....All made in Europe. You might want to rethink that "USA Corp." comment
Hey! Vorsprung durch Technik.
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  #127  
Old 16.08.2012, 11:20
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

I hope you are being ironic!

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There is absolutely no reason for anyone to travel faster than 80km/h
Yes there is: I want to get somewhere in a reasonable amount of time. On the other hand driving at 80kmh on the highway makes one fall asleep much easier and reduces attention. When I drive 80, I tend to eat + fiddle with teh radio/satnav, etc. However, when I drive 180-200, I surely don't do anything else but pay attention.

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Anyone with a car more powerful than 20kw is a huge liability and deadly danger to their surroundings.
If You pay no attention, you can kill someone with a 0.6l car at 80kmh just as easily as with a 4.2 R8

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A 2 ton block of metal screaming down the road at 100km/h contains the same amount of energy as 15kg of TNT!
So do a lot of other things that are not forbidden

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My right of not being endangered by crazy Audi R8 drivers
Why do you assume all drivers of fast cars a re crazy.???

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is more important than their enjoyment of owning a powerful car after all.
Who is to decide that?

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Potentially, a compromise could be made where cars above an engine output of over 20kw would be allowed strictly for racetrack usage, with the caveat that the car must be left at a secured garage on the track.
Maybe a compromise could be made that stupid people are not allowed out of their house as not to endanger others!

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The same goes for motorbikes. A bike going faster than 45km/h is a serious danger to the driver and therefore should not be allowed.
Life IS DANGEROUS! GET OVER IT. Maybe typing stupid comments on the keyboard should also be illegal as it strains the fingers and leads to injury (just turn your keyboard around and read the warning)

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Bikes are optimal for travelling short distances in a city and that is what they must be used for. There is no point in allowing bikes on a highway for example as this is actually very dangerous for everyone involved.
Says who? You?

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Edit: People who are in favor of gun rights are free to move to Somalia where no regulations of any sorts exist!
Why did You choose to offend an entire nation?

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Somalia as a shining beacon of an educated and civilized society is the perfect template to draw an example for legislation from.
The same irony could apply to US just as well!!!

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST STUPID POSTS I HAVE EVER READ HERE ON EF!!!
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  #128  
Old 16.08.2012, 11:26
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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There is no point in allowing bikes on a highway for example as this is actually very dangerous for everyone involved.
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Wasn't it st2lemans arguing for allowing filtering of bikes when the highways jam? Why do you need to filter on highways when you apparently agree that bikes should not even be there??? I AM PUZZLED?


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  #129  
Old 16.08.2012, 12:33
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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Actually, the guns in question are typically AK-47 rifles and Glock or Sig Saur high capacity 9mm pistols....All made in Europe. You might want to rethink that "USA Corp." comment
Damn. The Americans finally uncovered our strategy... we swamp them with guns and let them shoot themselves...
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  #130  
Old 16.08.2012, 12:42
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

The 2nd amendment (in fact all amendments for that matter) is written by people and for the people under the specific circumstances at the time of writing.

This is not written by a divine / omnipotent being, so I don't see why some people (including judges) are upholding it like one.
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  #131  
Old 16.08.2012, 13:40
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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This is a worthless thread. We are living in Switzerland.

I own two handguns and slept better at night from the day I purchased the first one. I'm certain that someone had commented that the self defense argument didn't hold up, but if you've lived in the US you know that it is not uncommon for people to break into a home with the sole purpose of harming someone. This is the only reason why I own a gun.
I lived in the US for most of my life. I even have had my house broken into 2x while I lived in Austin. The break ins were during the day and no one was home. I never have felt the need to have a gun, but I guess that is because my family wasn't into them. I suppose if my dad was taking me out to shooting ranges as a young child, I might feel differently, but I would not sleep better at night knowing there is a gun in the house.

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<snip>

I am an American, and don't feel that I'm especially self-righteous or bigoted. I didn't vote for president Obama, nor do I support a great many of the current administration's policies and goals for the future. I voted for the opposing candidate because he was more closely aligned with me personal beliefs for the direction I wanted my home country to take (i.e. less government, not more). In previous elections, I also failed to support Bill Clinton, but that wasn't because of his skin color either.

I am also a Christian, and my personal religious and or moral beliefs are as important to me as I'm sure yours are to you. I respect your right to your own belief system, and expect you to give me the same courtesy.
so, you are a republican.

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I basically defend your right to own your arsenal. But this is not the question. The question is whether you really will have your weapon ready when needed and will shoot faster and better than a potential attacker. This question remains valid even when you tell me that you were ..... and participated in ..... and attend a weekly training nearby.


Yes I will, as have many other armed homeowners. This also happens very often.
I hope you don't have young children in the home that can also easily access your weapon... I also don't really think this happens "very often" as you claim. In fact, as I write this, I can't think of 1 example.

ps- didn't vote as there wasn't a choice that fits my view...
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  #132  
Old 16.08.2012, 13:58
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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I lived in the US for most of my life. I even have had my house broken into 2x while I lived in Austin. The break ins were during the day and no one was home. I never have felt the need to have a gun, but I guess that is because my family wasn't into them. I suppose if my dad was taking me out to shooting ranges as a young child, I might feel differently, but I would not sleep better at night knowing there is a gun in the house.



so, you are a republican.



I hope you don't have young children in the home that can also easily access your weapon... I also don't really think this happens "very often" as you claim. In fact, as I write this, I can't think of 1 example.

ps- didn't vote as there wasn't a choice that fits my view...
Just because someone is pro-2nd Amendment or believes in gun ownership doesn't mean that person is a Republican. I have many liberal/Democrat friends as well as Libertarian friends who believe in gun ownership.

Also, did you know that many more children die in swimming pool accidents than die in gun-related accidents? I hope you don't have a swimming pool in your home that can be easily accessed by young children. Not trying to barb you, but just pointing out that while guns receive all the sensational press, there are many statistically more dangerous things out there.
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  #133  
Old 16.08.2012, 15:09
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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Also, did you know that many more children die in swimming pool accidents than die in gun-related accidents? I hope you don't have a swimming pool in your home that can be easily accessed by young children. Not trying to barb you, but just pointing out that while guns receive all the sensational press, there are many statistically more dangerous things out there.
I honestly don't mean any offense by this, but this sort of argument (the same as is made about cars, bikes, crossing a city street in rush hour, etc.) is patently absurd. if somebody could find a way to stuff a pool inside their jacket and then near-instantly drown 2 dozen innocent bystanders, you can bet your ass that the use of pools would be regulated.

we don't have a problem in the US of too many people dying as a result of gun accidents, we have a problem of too many people being murdered.
as an American, I don't think there is anything that indicts our culture and heritage more than the argument that I need to own and carry a weapon to defend myself against a fellow American.
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  #134  
Old 16.08.2012, 15:25
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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I honestly don't mean any offense by this, but this sort of argument (the same as is made about cars, bikes, crossing a city street in rush hour, etc.) is patently absurd. if somebody could find a way to stuff a pool inside their jacket and then near-instantly drown 2 dozen innocent bystanders, you can bet your ass that the use of pools would be regulated.
Not as absurd as you might think when you consider the argument is made to demonstrate the disproportionate amount of attention firearm accidents receive versus other, much more common accidents. Additionally, the comparison was made in response to a specific comment about leaving a gun where a child could find it.

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we don't have a problem in the US of too many people dying as a result of gun accidents, we have a problem of too many people being murdered.
as an American, I don't think there is anything that indicts our culture and heritage more than the argument that I need to own and carry a weapon to defend myself against a fellow American.
We have a problem of too many people being murdered, regardless of the weapon used. As I said earlier, people have been killing each other with whatever is handy since the beginning of time. We can't possibly ban or even regulate all the means by which one person can kill another. If someone is determined to do another person harm, the attacker will find a way.
This is not to say that regulation isn't needed. And I don't think it is an indictment of our culture anymore than it is an indictment of any other culture in the world in which murders are committed (btw, that's all of them); anywhere you have a large group of individuals, some of them are not to be trusted, and if the group is large enough, some of those individuals will commit violent acts. We need a way to protect ourselves from these individuals in ANY society.
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  #135  
Old 16.08.2012, 15:36
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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Just because someone is pro-2nd Amendment or believes in gun ownership doesn't mean that person is a Republican. I have many liberal/Democrat friends as well as Libertarian friends who believe in gun ownership.
Well, since the person I quoted decided to tell us that he (I presume) didn't vote for Obama, nor did he vote for Clinton, I didn't think it was too much of a stretch to assume he is a republican. In addition, added the info that he is a Christian...I wasn't condemning or otherwise, just stating what I felt was a fact.

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Also, did you know that many more children die in swimming pool accidents than die in gun-related accidents? I hope you don't have a swimming pool in your home that can be easily accessed by young children. Not trying to barb you, but just pointing out that while guns receive all the sensational press, there are many statistically more dangerous things out there.
I suppose they might, although to be honest, I haven't seen the stats from an independent group, preferably! Actually, I do have one of those cheap 'o pools in my backyard and I take care to make sure it is covered and there is no ladder access to the pool when I am not there.

Again, I was just pointing out that the poster has indicated that his handgun is ready and waiting for an attack against an intruder. I just expressed my hope that if there were kids in the home that care is taken that the gun doesn't end up in the wrong hands.
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  #136  
Old 16.08.2012, 15:42
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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We have a problem of too many people being murdered, regardless of the weapon used. As I said earlier, people have been killing each other with whatever is handy since the beginning of time. We can't possibly ban or even regulate all the means by which one person can kill another. If someone is determined to do another person harm, the attacker will find a way.
This is not to say that regulation isn't needed. And I don't think it is an indictment of our culture anymore than it is an indictment of any other culture in the world in which murders are committed (btw, that's all of them); anywhere you have a large group of individuals, some of them are not to be trusted, and if the group is large enough, some of those individuals will commit violent acts. We need a way to protect ourselves from these individuals in ANY society.
have you looked at where the US ranks globally in terms of murder rates?
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  #137  
Old 16.08.2012, 15:44
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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Wasn't it st2lemans arguing for allowing filtering of bikes when the highways jam? Why do you need to filter on highways when you apparently agree that bikes should not even be there??? I AM PUZZLED?

You don't get irony, do you?

Tom
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Old 16.08.2012, 16:11
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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have you looked at where the US ranks globally in terms of murder rates?
Yes, I have. Here's the results of a 2010 UN (UNODC) Study on intentional homicide rates. It states that determining what is murder and what is not varies widely from country to country, and has a great impact on where countries rank in terms of murder rates. Some countries simply do not report many homicides as such, instead preferring to label them as "accidents" to make themselves look more attractive for tourism or international business investment. Other countries take very strict interpretations of what is homicide and, consequently, report many more homicides for this reason alone. The US has been described as falling more in the latter category.

However, based on this study, the US ranks 107th of 211, with 4.2 homicides per 100,000. This is certainly not the best (Monaco and Palau reporting 0 per 100,000) but is 1/24th of the homicide rate in the worst country represented (Honduras, 91.6 per 100,000), so it is definitely not the worst, by a very long shot.

Also, I see countries that have very strict gun control laws which have low homicide rates, as well as countries with very high gun ownership having similarly low homicide rates. There are countries with strict gun control laws that still have as high homicide rates as countries with less gun control. This leads me to conclude that there is only a weak (at best) correlation between gun control and actual homicide rates.
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  #139  
Old 16.08.2012, 16:16
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You don't get irony, do you?

Tom
Yes I get irony, true irony. What I don't get is "backwards, pretended" irony as excuse
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  #140  
Old 16.08.2012, 16:20
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Re: US Gun Control Laws

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Yes, I have. Here's the results of a 2010 UN (UNODC) Study on intentional homicide rates. It states that determining what is murder and what is not varies widely from country to country, and has a great impact on where countries rank in terms of murder rates. Some countries simply do not report many homicides as such, instead preferring to label them as "accidents" to make themselves look more attractive for tourism or international business investment. Other countries take very strict interpretations of what is homicide and, consequently, report many more homicides for this reason alone. The US has been described as falling more in the latter category.

However, based on this study, the US ranks 107th of 211, with 4.2 homicides per 100,000. This is certainly not the best (Monaco and Palau reporting 0 per 100,000) but is 1/24th of the homicide rate in the worst country represented (Honduras, 91.6 per 100,000), so it is definitely not the worst, by a very long shot.

Also, I see countries that have very strict gun control laws which have low homicide rates, as well as countries with very high gun ownership having similarly low homicide rates. There are countries with strict gun control laws that still have as high homicide rates as countries with less gun control. This leads me to conclude that there is only a weak (at best) correlation between gun control and actual homicide rates.
which countries that have sufficient murders annually to be a fair comparison and that have lower murder rates than the US have gun ownership regulations which are as lax as ours?
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