Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
View Poll Results: What is your opinion today on Gun Control Laws in the US?
It is an important part of what makes America - no change needed 19 31.15%
I always though it should be kept - but not sure after recent events 2 3.28%
I used to think it was OK - but I have changed my mind 1 1.64%
If something very bad happens - we should change the law 2 3.28%
I never thought it was appropriate and wish US was gun-free 37 60.66%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06.08.2012, 14:45
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 4,004
Groaned at 110 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
US Gun Control Laws

Genuinely interested in starting to pin this down a little bit - Mods, I hope this is separate enough that it can stand alone as a thread / poll.

What is your opinion on the US Gun Control situation?

My own view is that the modern world and the current interpretation of the Second Amendment are hopelessly outdated and have been shown not to work - but what do you think?

I'd also be interested (if you are in favour of the status quo), what (if anything) would need to happen for you to change your mind?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06.08.2012, 14:50
Sandgrounder's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ZH
Posts: 11,761
Groaned at 106 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 20,513 Times in 7,897 Posts
Sandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

The unwillingness to address the issue despite the shameful numbers of innocent people gunned down in either accidents or massacres suggests that there will be no change. At least in our lifetime.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Sandgrounder for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 06.08.2012, 14:54
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 4,004
Groaned at 110 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
The unwillingness to address the issue despite the shameful numbers of innocent people gunned down in either accidents or massacres suggests that there will be no change. At least in our lifetime.
I agree - but I'm more interested in people's own feelings on the subject, rather than whether the politicians will ever address it
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06.08.2012, 14:55
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,982
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,797 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

it is not a question of our reading of the 2nd Amendment being "outdated", it is that our reading of the 2nd Amendment is entirely inconsistent with plain English. given his lifelong dedication to conservative jurisprudence, i.e. originalism, Scalia should burn in Hell for all eternity for what he has done with the 2nd Amendment.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 06.08.2012, 15:09
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,987
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,707 Times in 2,137 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

I don't pay attention to the details of the recent shootings. But in what percentage of the cases were the firearms legally acquired and possessed as per the constitution.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06.08.2012, 15:12
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,151
Groaned at 122 Times in 106 Posts
Thanked 16,505 Times in 5,809 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Not being from the US, it's difficult to relate to the whole debate, but if I had to profer and opinion, it would be close to the last. I don't think the US should be entirely gun-free, but there should be way more restrictions on who is able to buy a gun legally, and what sort of guns.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 06.08.2012, 15:15
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,982
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,797 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
I don't pay attention to the details of the recent shootings. But in what percentage of the cases were the firearms legally acquired and possessed as per the constitution.
in the typical high-profile case, e.g. Columbine, the guns are purchased legally.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 06.08.2012, 15:22
Chemmie's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 3,987
Groaned at 31 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 4,707 Times in 2,137 Posts
Chemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond reputeChemmie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
in the typical high-profile case, e.g. Columbine, the guns are purchased legally.
Fair enough.

The next question would be: In the case of the Columbine shooting, what is the chance of it not happening/less severe, if the US had adopted stricter gun laws before hand.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06.08.2012, 15:38
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,982
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,797 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
Fair enough.

The next question would be: In the case of the Columbine shooting, what is the chance of it not happening/less severe, if the US had adopted stricter gun laws before hand.
that is the $64,000 question, whether or not a deranged killer would (a) know where to purchase weapons illegally, and then (b) be willing to commit a felony in order to commit the crime of murder. my personal guess (and obviously it is only a guess) is that strict gun control laws in the US would have little to no impact on "criminal against criminal" gun violence like is rampant in most US urban areas, but would act as a strong deterrent against the "first time criminal" crimes like Columbine, Aurora, etc.

at the end of the day, though, the issue for me is more a simple exercise in plain English. the country's founders intended it to be one way, and we are making it another.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06.08.2012, 15:42
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,151
Groaned at 122 Times in 106 Posts
Thanked 16,505 Times in 5,809 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
Fair enough.

The next question would be: In the case of the Columbine shooting, what is the chance of it not happening/less severe, if the US had adopted stricter gun laws before hand.
The pro-gun lobby always seem to trot out the same old addage that they would have got their hands on the weapons illegally if they hadn't been able to obtain them legally. My opinion on that is that all "illegal" weapons were "legally" possessed at some stage and made their way onto the black market at some time or another.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 06.08.2012, 15:49
grynch's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Geneva/Vaud
Posts: 4,976
Groaned at 59 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 5,199 Times in 2,354 Posts
grynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post

at the end of the day, though, the issue for me is more a simple exercise in plain English. the country's founders intended it to be one way, and we are making it another.
"The right to arm bears bear arms"
but at the time the founding fathers wrote that there was a need for ready access to firearms as there were bears, Injuns, and worse.. British behind every rock.

what is the need today?



re. the poll.. I don't think much of any of the answers.. it's not a question of "if" something bad has happened.. it has, and I havent changed my mind re. firearms. but I don't think america should be free of firearms, as a wise Cornishman says they should be available but better regulated.

Last edited by grynch; 06.08.2012 at 16:03.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:14
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,982
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,797 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
"The right to arm bears bear arms"
but at the time the founding fathers wrote that there was a need for ready access to firearms as there were bears, Injuns, and worse.. British behind every rock.

what is the need today?
here is the full text:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

the first part of the amendment makes it pretty clear that the purpose of the amendment was to ensure a well regulated militia. how we ended up where are today is totally baffling to me, and an offense to the English language - for the last 50 years we have simply ignored the words that precede the comma.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:15
HollidayG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kanton Zürich
Posts: 3,034
Groaned at 52 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 1,178 Times in 736 Posts
HollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputationHollidayG has an excellent reputation
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Personally, I do not want to interefere with the American right
to hunt. It is a long tradition that should be upheld, BUT

Obama put it correctly IMHO, "The gun laws for New York City
should be different than those of rural Montana."

I would make it extremely difficult to get handguns and ban assault
weapons totally. They should also close the loop in the law for gun shows.

Do I think gun laws will change? probably not!!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:18
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Albis area
Posts: 806
Groaned at 110 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 584 Times in 330 Posts
EPMike has earned the respect of manyEPMike has earned the respect of manyEPMike has earned the respect of many
Re: US Gun Control Laws

While I voted for no guns, I strongly believe this matter should be addressed v carefully so that the guns are not taken out of the hands of "law abiding citizens" only but criminals as well.

While it is clear that criminals would find ways to get hold of guns anyway, more strict gun policies would lower the amount of guns "around". As paddyG said, a lot of illegal weapons were purchased legally at some point in time.

As for arguments such as "I need a gun to protect myself and family": Widespread availability of guns where everyone carries guns leads to anarchy.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EPMike for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:19
Sandgrounder's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ZH
Posts: 11,761
Groaned at 106 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 20,513 Times in 7,897 Posts
Sandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond reputeSandgrounder has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Out of interest, what are the main reasons for Americans wanting to own guns in the first place? From reading this forum over time, it would seem the main reasons are hunting/sport, self-defence or a general interest in firearms.

Is there any other reason(s)?

I think the latter two are possibly where it all goes wrong. Self-defence seems a massive wobbly grey area and the "hobby" in firearms sometimes seems to include a rather obsessive interest in accumulating a full arsenal.

Maybe as a Brit I don't "get" the gun obsession over there but it just seems that with so many people owning a gun, the only law in play is the law of probability which means the risk that someone is involved in an accident or other gun-related tragedy is greatly raised.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:19
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SZ
Posts: 9,246
Groaned at 22 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 20,422 Times in 6,547 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
here is the full text:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

the first part of the amendment makes it pretty clear that the purpose of the amendment was to ensure a well regulated militia. how we ended up where are today is totally baffling to me, and an offense to the English language - for the last 50 years we have simply ignored the words that precede the comma.
Discussion around the comma issue from the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/op...6freedman.html
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:20
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Albis area
Posts: 806
Groaned at 110 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 584 Times in 330 Posts
EPMike has earned the respect of manyEPMike has earned the respect of manyEPMike has earned the respect of many
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
The pro-gun lobby always seem to trot out the same old addage that they would have got their hands on the weapons illegally if they hadn't been able to obtain them legally. My opinion on that is that all "illegal" weapons were "legally" possessed at some stage and made their way onto the black market at some time or another.
Well maybe all is exaggerated, but I am sure quite a lot...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:21
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,732
Groaned at 197 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 19,017 Times in 8,082 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
I'd also be interested (if you are in favour of the status quo), what (if anything) would need to happen for you to change your mind?
I understand that the whole spirit of the Second Amendment is that "the people" should be able to overthrow an unjust or illicit government, if needed, at gunpoint. This is an understandable thought, seeing the USA actually gained independence through an armed rebellion, and thus wishes to retain the ability to do that again should the need arise.

If you expand on that chain of thought, any attempt by the government to limit the ability to rebel, is at the same time a strengthening of the government's ability to do as it pleases and ultimately become unjust without having to fear consequences.

So to reformulate the above question "what would need to happen for you to permit the government more means of unchecked repression", I would say "liberty is more valuable than security".

Maybe in a broader sense, you could turn it into the government needing to earn the trust it is requiring people to give it so they turn in their guns, rather than asking for the people to muster that trust and believe the government will then live up to its side of the bargain, as in "turn over your guns now and we promise to one day when we run out of other things to do, stop trampling over your rights".

I believe that knee-jerk reactions to singular events should not shape policy. Think of the Reichstag fire.

I should add that I'm not form the US and I don't actually believe guns are the answer (at least not here and now). But the above response comes from putting myself into the US perspective and my interpretation of US freedoms, which I greatly respect.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,982
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,797 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
View Post
Discussion around the comma issue from the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/op...6freedman.html
even with the extra commas, I am still baffled as to how a judge managed to completely ignore the first half of the amendment.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06.08.2012, 16:33
JamesAG's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Schliengen, Germany
Posts: 230
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 302 Times in 120 Posts
JamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputationJamesAG has an excellent reputation
Re: US Gun Control Laws

Quote:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Why does everyone quote the second half of this amendment, while ignoring the first half?

The right to bear arms in order to secure the free state -- in other words, the right to defend the country -- is what was intended. The founding fathers lived in a time when firearms were single-shot, fairly inaccurate weapons which needed to be re-loaded manually. If there had been drunk rednecks with fully-automatic AK-47s back then, they probably would have written this amendment more carefully.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank JamesAG for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Killings prompt Swiss to tighten gun laws The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 23.11.2011 11:51
Does Switzerland need to tighten its gun laws? The Local Swiss news via The Local 10 10.11.2011 14:28
The US taking control of the Interwebz? Nelly_Da_Hefferlump International affairs/politics 4 14.10.2010 00:30
The [US] out-of-control spending is official:Senate sends $1.1 trillion bill to Obama flavio International affairs/politics 0 13.12.2009 23:22
Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland Bartholemew Swiss politics/news 39 23.05.2007 13:24


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0