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View Poll Results: Is it RAPE or 'Bad Sexual Etiquette'?
Clear cut YES 9 32.14%
Not at all NO 6 21.43%
Undecided, let the courts decide once full info are disclosed 13 46.43%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 21.08.2012, 23:51
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

Taken in isolation if Assange did have sex with her while she was asleep, I think he has something to answer for.

But if you take this event within the context of the night before (i.e. she invites him over to her house, and then agrees to consensual sex), I think that it is then somewhat strange to allege rape against him after he has sex with her a few hours later.

Galloway has now tweeted that after the alleged rape incident, the lady dated Assange a few more times (https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/s...78734236422145)

If that is true, I would have to suspend my critical thinking to believe that this was rape and there wasn't something else going on.

If only he had got her to sign one of these that night...

Last edited by Kash_Z; 22.08.2012 at 01:06. Reason: typo
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  #42  
Old 22.08.2012, 00:44
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

If he penetrated her without waking her enough to gain consent (whether by word or deed), it's rape. It's pretty simple really.

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Galloway has now tweeted that after the alleged rape incident, the lady dated Assange a few more times (https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/s...78734236422145)

1. What's with politicians marginalizing rape these days? Pathetic.

2. What does this gentleman have to do with J. Assange and his legal defense anyhow? No background in law (he's a journalist!)

3. Bringing up a rape victims activity is merely another manner of trivializing rape. Just because they saw each other again (for whatever reason - maybe Galloway had Assange bugged at the time and knows exactly what happened on the occasions he's tweeting about?), doesn't mean the rape didn't happen.
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  #43  
Old 22.08.2012, 01:14
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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Old 22.08.2012, 01:20
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

If it's true that they had sex a few hours before the "rape" and it is also true that she subsequently dated him after the "rape" on a number of occasions, I would then personally doubt the truth of the rape allegations. To me, it seems completely abnormal that a person would date his or her rapist unless there was some form of coercion going on (which I have not heard is the case with Assange).

Yes, we can take the "rape" incident in isolation to their relations before and after, and we can play semantic games and completely ignore the context of it all, but I think we would then be turning the law on it's head.


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If he penetrated her without waking her enough to gain consent (whether by word or deed), it's rape. It's pretty simple really.

1. What's with politicians marginalizing rape these days? Pathetic.

2. What does this gentleman have to do with J. Assange and his legal defense anyhow? No background in law (he's a journalist!)

3. Bringing up a rape victims activity is merely another manner of trivializing rape. Just because they saw each other again (for whatever reason - maybe Galloway had Assange bugged at the time and knows exactly what happened on the occasions he's tweeting about?), doesn't mean the rape didn't happen.
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  #45  
Old 22.08.2012, 01:27
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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If it's true that they had sex a few hours before the "rape" and it is also true that she subsequently dated him after the "rape" on a number of occasions, I would then personally doubt the truth of the rape allegations. To me, it seems completely abnormal that a person would date his or her rapist unless there was some form of coercion going on (which I have not heard is the case with Assange).

Yes, we can take the "rape" incident in isolation to their relations before and after, and we can play semantic games and completely ignore the context of it all, but I think we would then be turning the law on it's head.
You say that as if you believe that every incidence of rape consists of the victim being beaten. It simply is a matter of either saying no, and not listened to OR being taken advantage of while being unable to give (or deny) consent. That's it.

Consent before, not rape. NO CONSENT, rape. Consent on another occasion not rape.

See the difference? Doesn't matter who she dated when, if she didn't consent, it was rape.
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  #46  
Old 22.08.2012, 01:30
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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If it's true that they had sex a few hours before the "rape" and it is also true that she subsequently dated him after the "rape" on a number of occasions, I would then personally doubt the truth of the rape allegations. To me, it seems completely abnormal that a person would date his or her rapist unless there was some form of coercion going on (which I have not heard is the case with Assange).

Yes, we can take the "rape" incident in isolation to their relations before and after, and we can play semantic games and completely ignore the context of it all, but I think we would then be turning the law on it's head.
i thought the rape allegations appeared only after she found out that assange had slept with another woman...
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  #47  
Old 22.08.2012, 01:32
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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if she didn't consent, it was rape.
and consent doesn't have to be verbal, or immediately before sex.
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  #48  
Old 22.08.2012, 08:46
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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if they are drunk, sleeping or not able to give consent then its attempted rape.
What if both are drunk?

Seriously - I would agree to "passed out", but if everyone who had sex with a woman after a few drinks is a rapist... well, I'd say I'd know a couple of rapists then as well as a couple of victims who did not really seem to see themselves that way.
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  #49  
Old 22.08.2012, 09:20
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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Seriously - I would agree to "passed out", but if everyone who had sex with a woman after a few drinks is a rapist...
Sales of Bacardi Breezer would certainly drop.
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  #50  
Old 22.08.2012, 09:30
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

When the guy was in and she woke up, did she say no? Did she say no and he kept doing it? If so, it is a rape.

But if she didn't say something and kept seeing him and going out with him, I am sorry but I can't see how this would be a rape.
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  #51  
Old 22.08.2012, 10:25
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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Sales of Bacardi Breezer would certainly drop.
Let's not get into the underage sex discussion again. Nobody over 18 drinks that stuff...
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  #52  
Old 22.08.2012, 10:29
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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i think if the did was acceptably and consensually done, both sleep the night together (i'm assuming in/close to the buff) a morning romp is definitely a possibility if not expected. If one initiates in the morning, and the other says no, but the initiator continues, then it is rape.
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  #53  
Old 22.08.2012, 10:45
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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You say that as if you believe that every incidence of rape consists of the victim being beaten. It simply is a matter of either saying no, and not listened to OR being taken advantage of while being unable to give (or deny) consent. That's it.

Consent before, not rape. NO CONSENT, rape. Consent on another occasion not rape.

See the difference? Doesn't matter who she dated when, if she didn't consent, it was rape.
I like your hard definition of the word "rape" - it doesn't leave room and therefore everyone knows where they are.

So :
  • Rape - sex without consent
then you need to have two subcategories :
    • without prior consent
    • where prior consent is given but withdrawn at a later stage
  • something else - sex where the opposite of consent is given
As per the thread title you first need to define exactly what is meant by the term "rape" - then it's easy to progress.
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  #54  
Old 22.08.2012, 11:06
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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  • where prior consent is given but withdrawn at a later stage
As per the thread title you first need to define exactly what is meant by the term "rape" - then it's easy to progress.
So if she gives consent but withdraws it retrospectively it is rape? Now if every woman could turn every sex she regrets into rape... then we would have even more rapists than if we only count the ones who had sex with a drunk female. I really do not want to downplay sexual abuse in any way - but that simply does not work. I am sure that it is tough for courts to define the exact border of consent and there is surely a difficult grey area in the middle where rape victims not just simply go to the cops. But this case is simply ridiculous. You cannot be ok with it till you find out that he wants to break up with you. Just as I find it ridiculous that there is a shitstorm in the UK because one politician dared to say the suspects names on TV - after they themselves have given interviews. Every suspect has the right of anonymity, but if you decide to go out can you not just force your point of view in the media...

P.S: I really wonder why no news reports if she was promised to a man - that makes the difference if we should stone both or make Assange pay 50 shekels and marry her...

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If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

...

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
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  #55  
Old 22.08.2012, 11:19
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

In the theoretical case of two fat people having sex and the female claiming rape, how would either of them know for sure if "correct entry" was consummated or if it was just a flabby fold?



NSFW
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  #56  
Old 22.08.2012, 11:30
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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So if she gives consent but withdraws it retrospectively it is rape? Now if every woman could turn every sex she regrets into rape... then we would have even more rapists than if we only count the ones who had sex with a drunk female. I really do not want to downplay sexual abuse in any way - but that simply does not work. I am sure that it is tough for courts to define the exact border of consent and there is surely a difficult grey area in the middle where rape victims not just simply go to the cops. But this case is simply ridiculous. You cannot be ok with it till you find out that he wants to break up with you. Just as I find it ridiculous that there is a shitstorm in the UK because one politician dared to say the suspects names on TV - after they themselves have given interviews. Every suspect has the right of anonymity, but if you decide to go out can you not just force your point of view in the media...
I don't think anybody has implied that the girls were sex workers but it seems likely that they were groupies. One had lent him her apartment to stay in while he was in Sweden and the other showed up at his lecture in order to see him.In both cases, it led to sex but there was apparently no problem until they found out about each other. Initially, they also did not charge him with rape, they complained that he had in one case not used a condom and in the other the condom had broken so they wanted to force him to take an HIV test. This complaint led to the rape charge as apparently if a woman has morning after regrets in Sweden, this can be considered rape.

Yup :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange

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An extradition hearing took place on 7–8 and 11 February 2011 before the City of Westminster Magistrates' Court.[238][239] At the hearing, Assange's defence raised a variety of objections, including mismatches between the EAW and the original accuser statements to the Swedish police[240][241] that exaggerated the nature of the complaints.[242][243] In particular they argued the original police reports showed - contrary to the EAW - absence of alleged rape; absence of alleged force or injury; admission in both cases of consensual sex on the same occasions as the allegations; and splitting of a condom used with plaintiff 1 rather than failure to use one.
The defence also highlighted evidence that: plaintiff 2 had later admitted to being "half asleep" after consensual sex, rather than "asleep"; that the plaintiffs had originally been seeking to compel Assange to take an STD test rather than prosecution;[244] and that plaintiff 1 had thrown a Crayfish party for Assange at her home the evening after the alleged incidents, from which she tweeted: "Sitting outdoors at 02:00 and hardly freezing with the world's coolest, smartest people! It's amazing!" and invited Assange to stay in her room afterwards.[245]

Last edited by parnell; 22.08.2012 at 11:51.
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  #57  
Old 22.08.2012, 11:51
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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Let's not get into the underage sex discussion again. Nobody over 18 drinks that stuff...
I do, and I'm nowhere near 18!

Tom
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Old 22.08.2012, 12:02
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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This complaint led to the rape charge as apparently if a woman has morning after regrets in Sweden, this can be considered rape.
No it is not. It is an own offense ("sex by surprise" and I am not joking...) that has far less gravity than rape. And since a broken condom cannot really be blamed on the guy is it very much "alleged" at this point, even for Swedish standards. But all US and UK media repeat continuosly "alleged rape"... even the BBC is unusually biased: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18521881

That's a nice FAQ, but isn't the point of the "conditional release" mechanism Assange fears? The one where a criminal sought by two countries can be handed over to one country, trialed, serve his sentence and then return to the second country to get trialed for the less severe crime? Not a word about it... I normally expect more from my favourite news source. As the FAQ points out might be some solution in place to prevent capital punishment, but even this is fairly questionable once he is in the US. Let alone no word on life in prison - which would mean that he'd never return to Sweden to have his sex crimes case at all...
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Old 22.08.2012, 12:11
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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No it is not. It is an own offense ("sex by surprise" and I am not joking...) that has far less gravity than rape.
Thanks... didn't know that - what I don't understand is how it can be surprise if you withdraw the consent after the act ? Is it (just) a surprise for the man when the police come to arrest you ?
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Old 22.08.2012, 12:13
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Re: On MP Galloway: is it RAPE if she's asleep? or just "Bad Sexual Etiquette"?

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Thanks... didn't know that - what I don't understand is how it can be surprise if you withdraw the consent after the act ? Is it (just) a surprise for the man when the police come to arrest you ?
maybe the police come to your door and exclaim: "Surprise!"
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