Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 23.08.2012, 10:06
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,536
Groaned at 424 Times in 327 Posts
Thanked 17,600 Times in 9,860 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
I don't know if it's still the case, but in earlier times you couldn't be buried in a churchyard either if you did the deed. That's why the topic is still so sensitive.


Quote:
View Post
Yes, suicide, especially in the Catholic religion is seen as a deadly sin and, I'm not sure if it's still the case nowadays, but you could not be buried in consecrated land...

Religions have many rules and taboos that aren't necessarily mentioned in the Bible and they also follow those rules that they like and ignore the rest. Do you follow all the rules in the Old Testament about what you can and cannot eat for instance?

This is what wikipedia says about it:

"The Abrahamic religions traditionally consider suicide an offense towards God due to the belief in the sanctity of life. It was often regarded as a serious crime and that view remains commonplace in modern Western thought. However, before the rise of Christianity, suicide was not seen as automatically immoral in ancient Greek and Roman culture."

It's only relatively recently that people have been able to get married outside of church or be buried in consecrated ground if they commit suicide.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 23.08.2012, 13:30
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 14,523
Groaned at 280 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 21,806 Times in 8,837 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post


Religions have many rules and taboos that aren't necessarily mentioned in the Bible and they also follow those rules that they like and ignore the rest. Do you follow all the rules in the Old Testament about what you can and cannot eat for instance? ...
No, because I've read what the Council of Jerusalem says about the applicability of the Torah to gentiles.

This determined questions wider than that of circumcision, particularly dietary questions, but also fornication and idolatry and blood, and also the application of Biblical law to non-Jews. It was stated by the Apostles and Elders in the Council: "the Holy Spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper." (Acts 15:27-28) And this Apostolic Decree was considered binding on all the other local Christian congregations in other regions.

Quote:
The Abrahamic religions traditionally consider suicide an offense towards God due to the belief in the sanctity of life.
Yes, obviously there is a tradition about suicide being a "sin". But that's rather different from being excluded from heaven; the Abrahamic traditions provide for covering/forgiveness of sins. The NT talks about the unforgiveable sin - but unless suicide is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", it isn't unforgiveable, hence, theologically, it doesn't exclude any from heaven - any more than shouting "oh f..." when you stub your toe.

In any case, the usual Judaic approach is to find a way around the person dying without repenting. "They repented just after the act, but before death". Or they were sick, as proven by their act, therefore they did not sin.

The Catholic Church says: "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives."

True, some denominations have used the logic that as you can't repent/confess after you've killed yourself, then your lost. Which has caused huge pain to families of suicides. However, this is a tradition of man, not something that's actually in scripture.

To my knowledge, only Islam (and I stand to be corrected) and some Christian denominations consider suicide a sin that takes you directly to hell.

Most major religions teach that suicide is wrong, so you are correct in that. However the majority do not teach that suicides do not go to heaven.

Interestingly, the Bolshevics (atheists) also considered suicide to be wrong. Their reasoning was that it was a crime against society, since the person did not have complete autonomy over their own life. (Weaver, Wright 2009; Histories of Suicide p208, p218). Clearly it isn't just a religious thing. Further there were a huge number of things that Roman and Greek culture considered perfectly acceptable that we now would recoil in horror from - so they're hardly an exemplar.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

Last edited by NotAllThere; 23.08.2012 at 13:45.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 23.08.2012, 13:38
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

I asked myself why he didn't arrange to come to zurich and do it with dignitas?
we have had a recent case of a well known italian journalist come to zurich for assisted suicide (he had depression and could organize all by himself, though).

does anyone know if the "zurich solution" applies for these desperate cases of people who cannot act for themselves any more?

(my question is simply legal, I am very aware and convinced of all moral and legal and social pros and cons.)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 23.08.2012, 13:42
grynch's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Geneva/Vaud
Posts: 4,945
Groaned at 50 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 5,199 Times in 2,354 Posts
grynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond reputegrynch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
I asked myself why he didn't arrange to come to zurich and do it with dignitas?
we have had a recent case of a well known italian journalist come to zurich for assisted suicide (he had depression and could organize all by himself, though).

does anyone know if the "zurich solution" applies for these desperate cases of people who cannot act for themselves any more?

(my question is simply legal, I am very aware and convinced of all moral and legal and social pros and cons.)
I believe even at Dignitas you have to be able to push the button to start the process. He very simply couldn't
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank grynch for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 23.08.2012, 13:45
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 14,523
Groaned at 280 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 21,806 Times in 8,837 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

That was the problem. He was locked in so couldn't kill himself. He needed someone else to do the deed, which is a strict no-no in most (all?) of the world.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 23.08.2012, 13:56
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
That was the problem. He was locked in so couldn't kill himself. He needed someone else to do the deed, which is a strict no-no in most (all?) of the world.
this is heart-rending, imagine the desperation for him and those near him.
I am sure I remember cases, though, in which a relative or a doctor have done it have faced trial to be later acquitted. so it is a risk some might consider taking.

probably the laws are still unsufficient, one way or the other, with lots of grey zones and so many differenecies between countries...

one thing I find terrible is that this rigidity leads to "preventive suicides". I personally know of at least two cases in which people who were ill/old but still perfectly fit organized an assisted suicide to be sure they would "make it" before they wouldn't be able to do it themselves any longer.

if possible, I find this even more tragic and wrong than giving someone you trust permission to do it later...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 23.08.2012, 14:08
eng_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Up where the air is clear
Posts: 1,768
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 1,786 Times in 904 Posts
eng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond reputeeng_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
one thing I find terrible is that this rigidity leads to "preventive suicides". I personally know of at least two cases in which people who were ill/old but still perfectly fit organized an assisted suicide to be sure they would "make it" before they wouldn't be able to do it themselves any longer.

if possible, I find this even more tragic and wrong than giving someone you trust permission to do it later...
Indeed. And so long as the person has the means to communicate, as Tony Nicklinson obviously did, surely there's a mechanism for ensuring that some impartial party can record their consent? Why can this not be covered under the usual consent laws for medical procedures?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 23.08.2012, 14:23
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
Indeed. And so long as the person has the means to communicate, as Tony Nicklinson obviously did, surely there's a mechanism for ensuring that some impartial party can record their consent? Why can this not be covered under the usual consent laws for medical procedures?
the legal problem seems to lie in the gap between signing a consent like the one contained in a medical will (ie "I allow to stop the life saving machines in case of coma after a period of three months" or such) which is at least in germany legally binding or at least accepted and actively taking action to terminate someone else's life. which is someone many would be ready to do if asked by their loved ones in great suffering.

some see the difference, some don't... probably impossible to solve from a merely technical point of view.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 23.08.2012, 14:55
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,536
Groaned at 424 Times in 327 Posts
Thanked 17,600 Times in 9,860 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

I would say the majority no longer teach that suicides do not go to heaven. It was commonly believed that suicides might rise from the dead which is why they were often buried beside crossroads in hopes of confusing the ghost. In the Middle Ages when things were much more black and white, committing such a sin meant that person couldn't be buried in a churchyard or have any form of religious rite spoken over them. They had cut themselves off from God and the church by their action and did not deserve/merit a proper burial in consecrated ground. That was the belief, not a tradition. Thankfully, both religious views and laws have changed for the better for those who have a strong religious belief and yet still feel they must take this drastic step.

And many other societies have a tradition of suicide being a very honourable/noble act, depending on the circumstances, Japan being the obvious one.

And shouting "oh f..k" when stubbing my toe might not get me excluded from heaven, but saying "gosh" often enough might well do. It comes too close to taking God's name in vain. At least that's what I was taught in Sunday school back in the 50s.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 23.08.2012, 18:23
smackerjack's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.K/VAUD
Posts: 2,242
Groaned at 14 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 2,691 Times in 1,110 Posts
smackerjack has a reputation beyond reputesmackerjack has a reputation beyond reputesmackerjack has a reputation beyond reputesmackerjack has a reputation beyond reputesmackerjack has a reputation beyond reputesmackerjack has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
I asked myself why he didn't arrange to come to zurich and do it with dignitas?
we have had a recent case of a well known italian journalist come to zurich for assisted suicide (he had depression and could organize all by himself, though).

does anyone know if the "zurich solution" applies for these desperate cases of people who cannot act for themselves any more?

(my question is simply legal, I am very aware and convinced of all moral and legal and social pros and cons.)

Although he had suffered a stroke he was able to communicate and even ran his own twitter a/c.
I was listening to the local radio and the reason he did not come to Dignitas was due to the high cost and the fact that whoever accompanied him could be charged and he could not risk that. (The figure quoted was around 60,000 - I find this figure unbelievable and don't know if it is correct).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank smackerjack for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 23.08.2012, 18:28
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 14,523
Groaned at 280 Times in 239 Posts
Thanked 21,806 Times in 8,837 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
... It comes too close to taking God's name in vain. At least that's what I was taught in Sunday school back in the 50s.
Then you were taught by someone who either is from a minority group (though perhaps influential in your home area), or doesn't know the teaching of their own church. There's a huge amount of ignorance about religion - both in and out of the church / mosque / temple... Breaking the commandments does not give you a direct "go to hell" card.

A principle of the catholic church is that you cannot change what has been officially taught. You cannot go against church tradition, as that it is as authoratitive as scripture. The idea that suicides go to hell has clearly been stated by the catholic church to be incorrect. Therefore it cannot ever have been officially taught, no matter how widespread the idea was among the general populace, or even among the priests, during the middle ages. Priests can be pig ignorant as well...

The majority of religions (and also some atheistic political systems) think suicide is wrong - this is indeed the biggest reason behind euthanasia being resisted across the world.

The majority of religions do not teach that suicides go to hell, which is what you originally stated. You were wrong, and families of suicides do not need to hear it. <--this last bit is why I've bothered correcting your misapprehension. There is a potential that you are spreading something that is untrue and damaging.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!

Last edited by NotAllThere; 23.08.2012 at 18:41.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 23.08.2012, 19:24
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
Although he had suffered a stroke he was able to communicate and even ran his own twitter a/c.
I was listening to the local radio and the reason he did not come to Dignitas was due to the high cost and the fact that whoever accompanied him could be charged and he could not risk that. (The figure quoted was around 60,000 - I find this figure unbelievable and don't know if it is correct).
thank you for this, smackerjack. the 60000 probably include all the costs that someone with his degree of disability would have to face for the whole trip. the basic charge is much less (about 9000 euros). if you read german I have uploaded this pdf of the german Tageszeitung which recently had a lead article regarding "suicide tourism" from germany.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 2012_08_16.pdf (7.43 MB, 13650 views)
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 23.08.2012, 19:32
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
Yes, suicide, especially in the Catholic religion is seen as a deadly sin and, I'm not sure if it's still the case nowadays, but you could not be buried in consecrated land...

It was also against the law, it would be ironic if the penalty was death!
AGainst UK law- but defo not against Swiss Law. Why would it be a 'slippery slope' in the UK, but works so well, with all re safety measures in place, in Switzerland?

BTW membership of EXIT is open to all residents in Switzerland, irrespective of nationality - for a very small sum per year. For me, the best insurance policy ever - just in case. Unlike Dignitas, they will allow you to die, with the support of one of their volunteers, in the comfort of your own home, with your family, friends, or as you wish- and fight for further improvements for the future, especially in case of Senility or Alzheimers- so people could make advance directives, stipulating exactly at what stage they would like Exit to intervene (which is currently not allowed- even if directives are very clear and relatives agree).

Two friends of mine in the UK have asked me if they could come and stay with us, in case they ever needed help in such a desperate case, and I said yes. They would have to make sure that they ensure that all their affairs and finance are settled in the UK with proper legal support - then register here as residents - become members immediately- which would take about 3 months.

Last edited by Odile; 23.08.2012 at 19:42.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 23.08.2012, 19:45
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
AGainst UK law- but defo not against Swiss Law. Why would it be a 'slippery slope' in the UK, but works so well, with all re safety measures in place, in Switzerland?

BTW membership of EXIT is open to all residents in Switzerland, irrespective of nationality - for a very small sum per year. For me, the best insurance policy ever - just in case. Unlike Dignitas, they will allow you to die, with the support of one of their volunteers, in the comfort of your own home, with your family, friends, or as you wish- and fight for further improvements for the future, especially in case of Senility or Alzheimers- so people could make advance directives, stipulating exactly at what stage they would like Exit to intervene (which is currently not allowed- even if directives are very clear and relatives agree).
yes, as a resident in switzerland I would definitely "prefer" (macabre word choice) Exit, but Dignitas is the only option for residents abroad. and whereas I appreciate Exit's point that as along as Dignitas does the "dirty work" for other countries, these won't need to change their legislations, I reall find it important that Dignitas is still open to those who are running out of time and cannot hope that legislation in thei home country will change soon, allowing them to die "in the comfort of their own home"...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank venice for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 23.08.2012, 20:00
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Totally agree Venice. Exit doctors and technicians have actually invented many devices, allowing members with severe degree of handicap, to still be able to trigger the device themselves. One of the Exit doctors who works as a volunteers had rigged up a device to help a member- only to find that on the day, the patient had had another seasure and couldn't activate the device, so out of compassion, did it for her. She was denounced by another doctor, taken to court but acquitted.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #36  
Old 23.08.2012, 20:06
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
Totally agree Venice. Exit doctors and technicians have actually invented many devices, allowing members with severe degree of handicap, to still be able to trigger the device themselves. One of the Exit doctors who works as a volunteers had rigged up a device to help a member- only to find that on the day, the patient had had another seasure and couldn't activate the device, so out of compassion, did it for her. She was denounced by another doctor, taken to court but acquitted.
this confirms what I thought and knew from previous cases in Italy, too. no judge in his/her right mind would lightly condemn the doctor who did for murder in such an obvious case.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 23.08.2012, 20:11
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
Exit doctors and technicians have actually invented many devices, allowing members with severe degree of handicap, to still be able to trigger the device themselves.
just thinking that maybe at Dignitas (the only option for Tony Nicklinson) they haven't got so far since they have less support in the swiss population (I have heard they are considered too commercial) and it would be too expensive to organize this "help with the trigger" with all its legal consequences.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 23.08.2012, 20:21
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Baden
Posts: 10
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts
RachelMeier has no particular reputation at present
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

It is such a sad story! He was such a brave man to stand up and fight for the right to die, feeling like he had lost all dignity :-( RIPxx
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 23.08.2012, 21:02
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
View Post
just thinking that maybe at Dignitas (the only option for Tony Nicklinson) they haven't got so far since they have less support in the swiss population (I have heard they are considered too commercial) and it would be too expensive to organize this "help with the trigger" with all its legal consequences.
Trained EXIT volunteers will visit members who request support many times, to ensure that no pressure is brought to bear on them, that they are ABSOLUTELY sure that this is what they REALLY want, and to assess any kind of difficulty with triggering the device, asking for technical support if necessary. So yes, unfortunately this is not possible with Dignitas in most cases, sadly.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 23.08.2012, 22:48
venice's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: zurich
Posts: 704
Groaned at 11 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 688 Times in 353 Posts
venice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond reputevenice has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Quote:
Trained EXIT volunteers will visit members who request support many times, to ensure that no pressure is brought to bear on them, that they are ABSOLUTELY sure that this is what they REALLY want, and to assess any kind of difficulty with triggering the device, asking for technical support if necessary. So yes, unfortunately this is not possible with Dignitas in most cases, sadly.
good point.
I couldn't care less what religions or other people think if I want to commit suicide. my problem is what people think if one day I do NOT want to!
I'm afraid of a society in which old people are not "allowed" to grow old and senile and ill.
as for the false issue of dignity, I refuse to think that someone should feel like he has lost his dignity because he is ill and not self sufficient any more... the value of human life is and must be considered to be absolute.
assisted suicide should be the last option individually chosen to end suffering, not to make life easier for others. in the TAZ article I uploaded the director of Dignitas says: "It is reasonable that someone who has already lived his life would prefer to save the money for the education of his grandchildren rather than to pay for years spent in a nursing home!"
well, no, I don't find it reasonable and I hope in my family I will never have to experience any similar expectation from anyone involved!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank venice for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
info Down Syndrome in Basel montra Family matters/health 16 31.01.2015 01:57
Downs Syndrome in Switzerland esto Other/general 37 30.08.2009 17:27
TV presenter Tony Hart dies at 83 Castro International affairs/politics 6 27.01.2009 14:48
Vision Off, Tony Hart dies Louis Wu General off-topic 0 18.01.2009 13:49


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0