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  #61  
Old 25.08.2012, 22:37
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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It is fashionable on EF to slag me, why I have no idea, but viewers can very easily see for themselves by checking my stats that many comments to my posts, and others that upset the status quo in this forum are really not relevant.

I may add some are not called for and are not justified, but are posted to antagonize!
Perhaps it's just the way you express yourself - coming across as a bit of a humourless nurk. All a bit earnest and right on.

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That is in no way a paranoid statement...
Oh but it is though.

Now, calm down. It's just an internet forum.
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  #62  
Old 25.08.2012, 22:54
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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Wow. You really have got your nickers in a twist over this one.

I pointed out that he was not fighting for the right to die.

The key here is that he needed help, and under current UK law, it would open anyone who helped him to prosecution for murder. That is the legal fight he was fighting: immunity for the person who helped him, so not really the right to die.

That you feel paranoid, got at, etc. etc. whatever is neither here nor there.

It is an important distinction, and, really, your reaction is OTT. Effecting change on EF until after you leave? Principle relevance? Whatever.
You know what I am saying, do not try and fool me or future readers by discerning the points I have tried to communicate , I am not fooled by your after the event patronizing excuses, get a back bone man and realise that there is a time and place to get pedantic and my point and this thread was not the place...

Battle me in any other thread and I have no problem, this one on the other hand was out of order!

PS... After reading this you will probably come back to me saying this is not a battle, it's all in your mind, your paranoid..

PPS... No, I'm not, no matter what you say or how many groans I get, I will always maintain a moral high ground, we all knew Tony's circumstances, those that didn't would be sure to ask, but did they?

PPS.... If they did it was not due to your input that educated them....
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  #63  
Old 25.08.2012, 22:55
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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Our discussions haven't been about your or mine beliefs, rather matters of fact on what most religions teach. You still seem to have a difficulty seeing that there is a difference between teaching that suicide inevitably leads to barring from heaven (which you claim, falsely, most religions teach) and teaching that suicide is a sin/breaking the 5th commandment or whatnot (which most do) . These are entirely difference matters. Sin does not inevitably lead to hell - that's the whole point of "salvation".

The Nazarene church has just over 2 million members worldwide, and so cannot really be considered representative of "most religions". I see that they do teach various sins will lose you your salvation - specifically suicide.

Frankly, if that was among the religious beliefs they indoctrinated you with, then you are indeed well shot of them.

I do find it fascinating that those who were bought up with religion who reject it in later life, still somehow consider all that they were taught is the absolute only possible version of the truth. It's not. You were in a minor sect.

Fwiw, I've every compassion for Tony Nicklinson, and anyone who so strongly desires not to live anymore. As far as my beliefs are concerned, I can honestly say that if he had managed to kill himself, that would have had no impact on his eternal fate (if he has one). I trust you don't object to that religious belief?
No, I say that they often taught that back in the Middle Ages, but beliefs and attitudes have changed for the better as we have much more understanding nowadays of why people feel driven to such a decision. I for one am glad that this is so, not only for those who take their own lives, but also for the sake of the people who are left behind for they suffered social stigma as well.

I certainly do not believe that what I was taught is the absolute only possible version of the truth. I leave that to the fundamentalists. I believe that the truth is something that is individual to each person, be they Catholic, Prostestant, Hindu, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist or any of the other religions of the world. How and where you find it is your personal journey through life and whether you end up in a heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, nowhere or anywhere else is individual to you and what conclusions/beliefs you have reached in your lifetime.

Yes I do agree. I don't know if he was a religious man, but if he was then I hope he's found the peace he was searching for.

It's the fact that the religious "sin" of suicide is so ingrained in our psyche that governments are reluctant to change laws to help people like Tony Nicklinson leave this world in a caring, dignified manner without the threat of a murder charge hanging over the heads of anyone who helps them that I object to.
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  #64  
Old 25.08.2012, 22:58
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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How does one avoid paying taxes. How does one avoid a lingering death?
Depends on the tax, if you enter into a 'contract' to pay one you are committed...

I can't answer your second question personally but Tony can by his actions!
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  #65  
Old 25.08.2012, 23:03
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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Perhaps it's just the way you express yourself - coming across as a bit of a humourless nurk. All a bit earnest and right on.

Oh but it is though.

Now, calm down. It's just an internet forum.
It is this type of comment that is damaging to the forum, self righteous snidey 'but I'm just saying' with an underlying hint of malice that is so damaging...

People get fed up with it, don't you realise that?

Can't you see it or are you just too set in your ways now to recognise it?
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  #66  
Old 25.08.2012, 23:29
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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<snip - paranoid rant>
Whatever makes you happy.
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  #67  
Old 25.08.2012, 23:41
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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Whatever makes you happy.
This does not make me happy as an Englishman, but reminds me of the fact that I am an Englishman, confident in respecting the fact that I will never back down on a point I feel strongly about and I am prepared to defend...

Maybe the English respect this trait more than others because our ancestors have shouldered a lot of responsibility in the past and have taught us to do the same in the future, even though our standing in the World may have dwindled somewhat our mentality will never?
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  #68  
Old 25.08.2012, 23:51
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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This does not make me happy as an Englishman, but reminds me of the fact that I am an Englishman, confident in respecting the fact that I will never back down on a point I feel strongly about and I am prepared to defend...

Maybe the English respect this trait more than others because our ancestors have shouldered a lot of responsibility in the past and have taught us to do the same in the future, even though our standing in the World may have dwindled somewhat our mentality will never?
To be honest, I think the original point has been lost.

The thread started off with meaning and depth to it and it was quite interesting to see how people viewed the life and eventual death of Tony Nicklinson. Now it has just descended into a tit for tat point scoring exercise, dragging the issue so far off topic it's now unrecognisable.
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  #69  
Old 26.08.2012, 04:17
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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To be honest, I think the original point has been lost.

The thread started off with meaning and depth to it and it was quite interesting to see how people viewed the life and eventual death of Tony Nicklinson. Now it has just descended into a tit for tat point scoring exercise, dragging the issue so far off topic it's now unrecognisable.
One uncomfortable issue tends to bring to light others, sometimes a conversation as we all know can go in what may seem off topic but is in fact just a variation of the original...

A death can provoke stronge emotions, the death of a campaigning warrior even more so...
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  #70  
Old 26.08.2012, 06:04
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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I asked myself why he didn't arrange to come to zurich and do it with dignitas?
we have had a recent case of a well known italian journalist come to zurich for assisted suicide (he had depression and could organize all by himself, though).

does anyone know if the "zurich solution" applies for these desperate cases of people who cannot act for themselves any more?

(my question is simply legal, I am very aware and convinced of all moral and legal and social pros and cons.)
I think in Tony's situation he might have been worried that if his relatives and friends deliver him to Dignitas, they could be seen as to be helping with his suicide.
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  #71  
Old 26.08.2012, 07:59
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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...
It's the fact that the religious "sin" of suicide is so ingrained in our psyche that governments are reluctant to change laws to help people like Tony Nicklinson leave this world in a caring, dignified manner without the threat of a murder charge hanging over the heads of anyone who helps them that I object to.
I don't think it's a fact at all, especially in the UK.

I had a friend kill himself in 1987 - he was 18. There was never any question, at all, of him having "committed a sin". During the funeral, there was no mention of it, nor when I discussed with people from different religious backgrounds. Theologically, I suppose - technically - it's a sin; but that certainly wasn't on anyone I spoke to's mind, priest or layperson. (And if anyone had ignorantly suggested "he's in hell now because of suicide" - they'd have got a figurative smack). Theologically though, God's grace and mercy trumps the sin (if it exists).

Christian poet, Adrian Plass wrote this:

Our father who are in heaven,
Jenny walking in front of a train last night,
Hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come,
She was only thirty-seven,
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven,
You knew what she was going to do, didn't you, Lord?
Give us this day our daily bread,
She had no hope left,
And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Jenny is forgiven, isn't she?
Lead us not into temptation,
Lots of us are on the edge of darkness,
And deliver us from evil,
The only strength we have is yours,
For thine is the Kingdom,
And she's living there now,
The power and the glory,
She's yours, Lord,
For ever and ever,
Jenny,
Amen.


You know, abortion was legalised in 1968. At that time the majority of ordinary people were against it. Now, the view of ordinary people has changed - the majority consider it the lesser of two evils, and acceptable in a modern society. It seems that the law at least contributed to the change in ethics. Suicide was decriminalised in 1961 - it would seem strange if that hadn't had a similar effect.

While I doubt most churches will ever condone assisted suicide, what Nicklinson achieved is to make it more likely that at some point in the future, assisted suicide will be decriminalised in the UK. Myself, I'm in two minds about it. I'm not convinced that it's wrong. From compassion's view point it's one way. For protecting the vulnerable from repercussions, it's the other.
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Old 26.08.2012, 09:45
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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One uncomfortable issue tends to bring to light others, sometimes a conversation as we all know can go in what may seem off topic but is in fact just a variation of the original...

A death can provoke stronge emotions, the death of a campaigning warrior even more so...
You can dress it up how you like. To anyone not involved in the bun fight, the discussion went from the death of Tony Nicklinson to an irrelevant rant about forum politics.

If you feel that strongly you should have started a new thread about it and not derailed this one.

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While I doubt most churches will ever condone assisted suicide, what Nicklinson achieved is to make it more likely that at some point in the future, assisted suicide will be decriminalised in the UK. Myself, I'm in two minds about it. I'm not convinced that it's wrong. From compassion's view point it's one way. For protecting the vulnerable from repercussions, it's the other.
I think he certainly ignited the debate and did it in such a way that he gained a nationwide sympathy. I recall a case a few years ago (it was a woman but her name escapes me now) who was, for all intents and purposes not incapacitated and able to speak and move albeit confined to a wheelchair. I think it was a degenerative condition such as motor neurone disease and her aggressive pursuit of a change in the law left me and probably others a bit cold.

Tony Nicklinson's plight was plain to see and he seemed to maintain his focus whilst remaining humble. I still think it was sickening that his loving family couldn't grant him is only wish and were forced to watch the agony of his existence.

There is room for discussion within parliament. Far more complex and convoluted laws exist, there's no reason why the current law for assisted suicide cannot be successfully debated and amended.

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 26.08.2012 at 09:59.
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Old 26.08.2012, 10:16
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

very sad story indeed, RIP.
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  #74  
Old 26.08.2012, 11:31
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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While I doubt most churches will ever condone assisted suicide, what Nicklinson achieved is to make it more likely that at some point in the future, assisted suicide will be decriminalised in the UK. Myself, I'm in two minds about it. I'm not convinced that it's wrong. From compassion's view point it's one way. For protecting the vulnerable from repercussions, it's the other.
There do have to be safeguards built into whatever system is chosen. I can understand the worries that people/governments have about the system being abused, but there do seem to be systems such as they have here that do their best to address that issue. It's a difficult subject to broach/talk about, which is part of the problem I suspect, but it does need to be discussed/debated so that the law can be changed.
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Old 26.08.2012, 12:30
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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I still think it was sickening that his loving family couldn't grant him is only wish and were forced to watch the agony of his existence.
His wife was shown as saying that what he wanted was what they wanted. Not necessarily the same as wanting him dead so that the family could be put out of the misery of watching him suffer. They might have preferred him to be like this guy, even if it must still be difficult for the family:

Man with locked-in syndrome 'amazingly happy', says wife
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  #76  
Old 26.08.2012, 12:41
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

Well that is wonderful- but I am so glad to see that they are supporting the rights of others to feel differently, and to want a different outcome.
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Old 27.08.2012, 12:05
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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His wife was shown as saying that what he wanted was what they wanted. Not necessarily the same as wanting him dead so that the family could be put out of the misery of watching him suffer. They might have preferred him to be like this guy, even if it must still be difficult for the family:

Man with locked-in syndrome 'amazingly happy', says wife
Thanks for sharing the link.

Interesting "follow-on link", of an interview with Professor John Saunders, chair of the Ethics Committee for the Royal College of Physicians, who says (or should I say confirms?) the case was about a right to kill, not about a right to die.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19287568
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Old 27.08.2012, 12:30
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

That link made me scream at the Dr interviewed- to tell a man suffering as Tony was, well, you can go on Hunger strike, like the prisoners in a jail - is such a nasty, vile, disgusting thing to say. And such a long cruel method for taking a life. Appalling.

NO NO NO it is not about killing someone- it is about giving the physical help to achieve someone to do what THEY CLEARLY WOULD LIKE TO DO THEMSELVES, IF THEY COULD. All the laws regarding the handicapped and physically challenged people is that society, services, etc, etc, state that equal access to must be given, in as far as possible. IMHO refusing him help to achieve what HE wanted, but was not able to do for himself, is in clear breach of disability law and regs.

Some people here take great delight in saying that Switzerland is 50 years back - but in this case I am so proud we are light years ahead- and live in a truly secular State where laws are not still heavily influenced by religious lobbies.

Last edited by Odile; 27.08.2012 at 13:03.
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Old 27.08.2012, 12:47
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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NO NO NO it is not about killing someone
Sorry Odile. While the guy is clearly being "cold", and certainly the hunger strike "suggestion" is not very tasteful (no pun intended), but legally, that is what the case was about. We are talking law here, not emotions.

I don't see why you think this is the result of a heavy influence of religion. While CH is indeed ploughing a different path in this instance, can you really say that the country is not influenced by religion?
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Old 27.08.2012, 12:55
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Re: Tony Nicklinson dies ( locked in syndrome legal case )

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Sorry Odile. While the guy is clearly being "cold", and certainly the hunger strike "suggestion" is not very tasteful (no pun intended), but legally, that is what the case was about. We are talking law here, not emotions.

I don't see why you think this is the result of a heavy influence of religion. While CH is indeed ploughing a different path in this instance, can you really say that the country is not influenced by religion?
as a total outsider to CH and coming from a country dominated by a 99% religion I assure you there is a big difference: in switzerland many religions are represented and - not be forgotten - about 1/4 of the population does not belong to a specific confession.
I personally feel an very big difference to italy or germany, where religion is omnipresent from schools to hospitals to the media. no decision can be made in these two countries without the main churches chiming in at some point. which is OK, mind you, because they are often the only one defending human values in a world that seems gone mad...
BUT the churches too often become political, forgetting their role as spiritual agencies. I think this works better here in CH because of the greater diversity (at least in the cities).
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