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  #2581  
Old 03.10.2017, 18:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

they where saying this morning he was using 2 rifles at the same time and had setup some kind of tripod, who knows, it'll all come out eventually
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  #2582  
Old 03.10.2017, 18:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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pilatus1 is American?
I couldn't help it
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  #2583  
Old 03.10.2017, 19:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Yes, it's a factor. But equally if there are other countries where guns and ammunition are freely available and where there aren't mass shootings, does that not indicate this isn't exclusively a gun problem. Do you see that?

Let's look at it another way. Muslims have been responsible for pretty much every mass killing in Europe over the past few years. Islam is clearly a factor. Is the answer to preventing terrorist attacks to ban Muslims?
Was Muslim religion a factor in the Norway mass murders in 2011 by Anders Behring Breivik? He managed to kill more people (68) than Stephen Paddock in LV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_N...attacks#Attack

I think we are all becoming uninterested in these mass murders, there are so many!
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  #2584  
Old 03.10.2017, 19:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I think we are all becoming uninterested in these mass murders, there are so many!
woow, while I may not be one to gossip and preanalyze these things - never was - I'm definitely not "uninterested because there are so many".
I was pretty rattled when I read about it yesterday.
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  #2585  
Old 03.10.2017, 19:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Was Muslim religion a factor in the Norway mass murders in 2011 by Anders Behring Breivik? He managed to kill more people (68) than Stephen Paddock in LV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_N...attacks#Attack

I think we are all becoming uninterested in these mass murders, there are so many!
Yes, that's one attack 6 years ago in Noway, where there are very strict gun laws. Didn't help, did it? And since then, how many attacks have there been in gun restricted Europe? And who carried them out?

There was a fire in a Tower Block in London that killed EVEN MORE people than Stephen Paddock. It was started by someones fridge catching fire. Should we ban fridges? Or Tower Blocks? Or perhaps safest just to ban everything.

Last edited by Loz1983; 03.10.2017 at 20:13.
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  #2586  
Old 03.10.2017, 20:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Latest speculation is that he wasn't using an automatic rifle, rather a belt-fed machine gun (due to the number of shots heard without a break in the audio).

Tom
Even if you presume that some of the sound is echo, the bursts are very prolonged. Much longer than even a large clip would hold, methinks.
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  #2587  
Old 03.10.2017, 21:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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In a different context I might agree with you, but in this case I think a ban would be in order. You don't wait to change the culture because it might take decades, you have to give the strongest signal. They really crossed that line when one would think it could be repairable - smoothly.. Too many innocent victims are dying because people with the IQ of a spoon are getting their hands on guns way, way too easily. I have nothing against hunting clubs and shooting sport clubs, but that's different.
It is totally different. But to think that the murderer had an IQ of a spoon is a step in a wrong direction, and I can see already an avalanche of sale hungry media and lame political populists jumping on exactly that band vagon. It is as off as to think that his dad was on the FBI chase list by a complete accident, right? To think he was dumb will not prevent others. To start screening hotels at an entry will not do it either.

It was a pretty meticulously executed, preconceived plan. Now, if we quit excusing terorists with religious reasoning and social opressed motivation and stick to extreme sanctions, we might also be able to lump cruelty to the same criminal denominator and go after it efficiently. I think. Which seems to be the DT approach in his speech. Hyenous act. I wish they cought him and the grieving families judged him. Demonizing the ways he did it just takes away from the sheer wrongness and immorality of his decision, as if it was a fault of legislature and not him planning. There are other ways to get rid of so many people at once, just like his dad was creative staying on the run for years efficiently, the shooter would figure out those other mass ways.
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  #2588  
Old 03.10.2017, 21:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

In the spirit of offering ideas, I have three.

Comparing gun deaths to car related deaths may seem crass, but hear me out, without judging. (for a moment :-) )

Reducing deaths from automobiles does not happen by banning cars, or putting faster cars in the hands of good guys. It happens with incremental steps, changes to the law, technology improvements (air bags, seat belts), road and infrastructure improvement, training and societal conditioning (drink driving). Changing the story from banning something to reducing the risks from something becomes a narrative of protecting, not controlling.

My second idea is radical. Instead of banning guns, hold firearms and bullet manufacturers accountable for the consequences of what happens throughout the life cycle of the product they manufactured and sold. Invite and support class actions against manufacturers whose weapons are used for domestic. In this respect, I draw comparisons with the tobacco industry.

Third, make the ownership of firearms subject to mandatory liability insurance.

"Sir has a gun safe, bravo. you get a 10% discount".
"Madam bought two silencers and a high capacity magazine, that's an extra 25%"
"Annual psych evaluation passed, advanced training completed, 10% discount".
5 years, no claims discount and so on.

The right to bear arms will look much less attractive when our friend Bud has to pay a thousand bucks to insure his shiny new AR15. The insurers will drive changes to behavior.

I know my suggestions are probably flawed. What the US needs is a national debate and some fresh thinking instead of the same tired rhetoric.
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  #2589  
Old 03.10.2017, 21:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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In the spirit of offering ideas, I have three.

Comparing gun deaths to car related deaths may seem crass, but hear me out, without judging. (for a moment :-) )

Reducing deaths from automobiles does not happen by banning cars, or putting faster cars in the hands of good guys. It happens with incremental steps, changes to the law, technology improvements (air bags, seat belts), road and infrastructure improvement, training and societal conditioning (drink driving). Changing the story from banning something to reducing the risks from something becomes a narrative of protecting, not controlling.

My second idea is radical. Instead of banning guns, hold firearms and bullet manufacturers accountable for the consequences of what happens throughout the life cycle of the product they manufactured and sold. Invite and support class actions against manufacturers whose weapons are used for domestic. In this respect, I draw comparisons with the tobacco industry.

Third, make the ownership of firearms subject to mandatory liability insurance.

"Sir has a gun safe, bravo. you get a 10% discount".
"Madam bought two silencers and a high capacity magazine, that's an extra 25%"
"Annual psych evaluation passed, advanced training completed, 10% discount".
5 years, no claims discount and so on.

The right to bear arms will look much less attractive when our friend Bud has to pay a thousand bucks to insure his shiny new AR15. The insurers will drive changes to behavior.

I know my suggestions are probably flawed. What the US needs is a national debate and some fresh thinking instead of the same tired rhetoric.
I appreciate you going into alternatives and suggestions since all we read now is a logical and ordinary, nothing-telling condoning. It takes effort to actually come up with ideas, instead of the loudest outrage. So, thanks.

I thought about it. The driving safety had increased after really costly fines and loss of driving license, etc. I always thought yank hypocritical ways of booze quasi prohibition and social intollerance was just a hysteria until I read the recent stats on European "responsible" and pretty open drinking, and it looks like Europe is a bunch of bozos. Shame on Europe. So it worked. That said, alcohol in the US is legal, societal norms just simply control it.

Now - cannot imagine the shooter going for an anual psy evaluation. Do you remember the German pilot who burried a whole passanger charter flight because his chick left him? He got away with avoiding psy re-evaluations. I wonder why.
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  #2590  
Old 03.10.2017, 21:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I guess some guidance on interpretation of the second amendment's "citizens right to bear arms" is required.

Why not limit it to this ?:



But if this is OK:



why not this ?:



or this ?:



or even this ?:




The question is only where to draw the line.

And I expect the gun lobby will now be arguing that if the victims of the shooting were each carrying a Smith and Wesson or Glock etc. which they could conjure out their handbags or trouser pockets to defend themselves, the Las Vegas shooter would have been neutralised and the catastrophe averted.
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  #2591  
Old 03.10.2017, 22:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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to think that the murderer had an IQ of a spoon is a step in a wrong direction.
Indeed, he was a former (and rich) accountant, so IQ probably on the high side.

Tom
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  #2592  
Old 03.10.2017, 22:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Indeed, he was a former (and rich) accountant, so IQ probably on the high side.

Tom
I don't know that many semi-professional poker players with severely impacted intellect, tbh.

What I know is that people who commit crime like this have zero empathy and serious affective problems. Or, are on steroid treatment and get hit by a sudden psychosis. But those are speculations. His lady friend will know more, maybe.
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  #2593  
Old 03.10.2017, 22:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't understand this "You have to be American or live in America to understand why guns have a place"?
(which comes up regularly on this thread - the last time bu 3Wishes yesterday).

That would be like saying that if I go to live in Saudi Arabia for a few months, I'd get to appreciate a good public beheading as a great family day out.

Well Mrs. 3Wishes and others, I hate to put this to you but I know a lot of Americans who thinks gun control should be much more tightly regulated.
Unfortunately you're missing the point. A few months in Saudi will no more give you a true understanding of that country than a few months in any city USA would help you understand the U.S., much less its gun culture. As J2488 and edot tried to explain, it's deeply woven into the fiber of the country. Of course there are some reasonable people who think there should be more control, and you happen to know them. By the way, I happen to think there need to be more checks and controls too. Explaining the the culture doesn't mean I agree with all aspects of it.

When events like this happen, the discussion often turns to flat-out banning of one gun or another (or all of them). Discussions of tighter background checks, limiting ammo, etc. all have come up. But until the U.S. addresses its godlike worship of guns, nothing is going to change in a meaningful way. And until Congress stops taking lobbying money from the NRA.

I know plenty of people who are convinced the gubmint is out to get them, that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to have a good guy with a gun, etc. That's the mentality you have to (try to) wrap your head around, and it's not easy having this type of discussion with someone who is otherwise very rational and intelligent, but when you start talking about guns they go off the rails.

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...I think we are all becoming uninterested in these mass murders, there are so many!
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woow, while I may not be one to gossip and preanalyze these things - never was - I'm definitely not "uninterested because there are so many".
I was pretty rattled when I read about it yesterday.
I don't think he meant uninterested, but maybe people become somewhat de-sensitized when things like this appear to be almost commonplace.

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...What the US needs is a national debate and some fresh thinking instead of the same tired rhetoric.
^This. The problem is that you've got a large chunk of the population that is not willing to discuss anything because they're too paranoid.
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  #2594  
Old 04.10.2017, 09:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

It'll be interesting to hear what the killer's GF/flatmate knew about the plan. The guy had nearly 50 guns, some modified for rapid fire. Loads of ammo. Tripod(s). Cameras set up in the hotel room peephole and in the hallways. And he'd sent 100k to the Philippines the week before - where the GF/flatmate was at the time.

Could she really not have noticed anything out of the ordinary?
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  #2595  
Old 04.10.2017, 09:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Unfortunately you're missing the point. As J2488 and edot tried to explain, it's deeply woven into the fiber of the country.
So were many other stupid things in the not too distant past, such as segregation of races. Seems stupid now, doesn't it?

I do understand the people versus a potentially corrupt government idea. There's a grain of sense in it. In my opinion, it is the single biggest reason why the pro gun fraternity has been able to proliferate.

On the other hand, allowing that ideal ultimately facilitates events like the latest incident. There are no two ways about this.

Should normal people be able to amass such an arsenal of deadly weapons, on the premise that they might need to conduct a civil war against a corrupt regime, in a country like the USA? Big question.

About 60 people dead, all their families and friends affected. Hundreds, if not thousands of people. World media descending hungrily. Videos of the event shown around the world within an hour of it happening, on all social media.

Simply put, if it were up to me, I'd ban all weapons except for well investigated hunting licences. And I tell you what, media exposure does nothing but make these events more commonplace. I'd somehow limit the reporting. 10 vor 10 on TV last night made a report about spree killings but at the end said, they are not naming the names of the killers because they don't deserve to have any recognition.
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  #2596  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

In Europe, fewer mass killings due to culture not guns
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  #2597  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It'll be interesting to hear what the killer's GF/flatmate knew about the plan. The guy had nearly 50 guns, some modified for rapid fire. Loads of ammo. Tripod(s). Cameras set up in the hotel room peephole and in the hallways. And he'd sent 100k to the Philippines the week before - where the GF/flatmate was at the time.

Could she really not have noticed anything out of the ordinary?
Maybe it would have set off alarm bells if they had lived anywhere outside of the US but it doesn't seem to be SO unusual to have even a huge armoury in the US.

You have a point, though, I was just finding some kind of possible explanation.

Also, if it's your partner, it must be very hard to think like that. That they could be planning a massacre. They interviewed his brother on TV and the poor guy was utterly and genuinely stunned.
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  #2598  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Maybe it would have set off alarm bells if they had lived anywhere outside of the US but it doesn't seem to be SO unusual to have even a huge armoury in the US.

You have a point, though, I was just finding some kind of possible explanation.

Also, if it's your partner, it must be very hard to think like that. That they could be planning a massacre. They interviewed his brother on TV and the poor guy was utterly and genuinely stunned.

Exactly.
Amazing that American society accepts that a reasonable person might have 50 guns 'for personal use'.
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  #2599  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And I expect the gun lobby will now be arguing that if the victims of the shooting were each carrying a Smith and Wesson or Glock etc. which they could conjure out their handbags or trouser pockets to defend themselves, the Las Vegas shooter would have been neutralised and the catastrophe averted.

I recall reading that there were people who had guns, but they didnt use them because they didnt want the police to mistake them for the shooter.


Which raises a valid point:


If youre a police officer in the midst of a mass shooting, and everyone in front of you has a gun, who do you shoot?
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  #2600  
Old 04.10.2017, 10:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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If youre a police officer in the midst of a mass shooting, and everyone in front of you has a gun, who do you shoot?
the black guy
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