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  #261  
Old 04.05.2015, 11:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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About "I assume it was supposed to be provocative."
Indeed, in which case both sides achieved some objectives but at the price of human life. I assume there was a heavy (maybe hidden?) police presence so they stood no chance anyway of killing anyone.

If the Nutjobs were true believers they would leave it to their Boss to strike down the offenders or send them to Hell for a thousand years or whatever is the Punishment du Jour.
There are different ways in which you can respond to a provocation.

For example, Mahmud Ahmadinedschad, when he was president of Iran, responded to the Danish Mohammed caricatures by inviting cartoonists of the world to participate in a Holocaust cartoon competition.

Now I don't want to defend the man and I do not approve of Holocaust cartoons. But it was a non violent way of responding to the provocation and holding up a mirror to the West by showing there are some things that are beyond discussion to some people and that it's in bad taste to make jokes of them.

The Jews of the world may have grumbled about that one but they didn't kill anyone or hold violent demonstrations over it. But that's another issue.
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  #262  
Old 04.05.2015, 11:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But it was this pair that ran to this conference with the purpose of shooting it up. If they'd ran in and shouted "Allahu Akbar", they wouldn't have been lynched, rather laughed at. Your comprison makes no sense.
How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?
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  #263  
Old 04.05.2015, 11:13
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?

I have. Have you? Do you know anyone who has? I didn't get lynched, but only told that "Jesus loves you". Seriously.
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  #264  
Old 04.05.2015, 11:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?
In Texas, no less?

They would have likely faced the same outcome…(shot as they ran in shouting - presumed guilty) The cartoon contest was surely thought up as a way of antagonizing the Muslim community. And the crazy Texans taking part were probably armed to the teeth, with many secretly hoping that something just like this shooting would take place. Drawing Mohammed cartoons isn't exactly a normal pastime/hobby like a stamp convention, baseball card show, or gun show.

I'd like to think that the people were trying to open up an intellectual discussion, but more realistically believe that they are more inclined to be racist, xenophobic, self-righteous, gun-toting, bible-thumping right wingers looking for a chance to start the battle of Armageddon.
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  #265  
Old 04.05.2015, 11:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?
This is irrelevent. These guys were planning on shooting up this conference because they felt Islam was being insulted. It's happened before and it will happen again. Somehow Islam makes these bold claims whereby illustrating the prophet is prohibited. Observent Muslims are free to refrain from doing this, however in this part of the world they have absolutley no right to stop anyone else from doing this.

*Mods, can you move this to Charlie Hebdo now as it's clearly more related to that topic?

Last edited by Loz1983; 04.05.2015 at 11:26. Reason: Thread move request
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  #266  
Old 04.05.2015, 11:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Of course I don't condone the shooting but I can't imagine why you couldn't see that the drawing competition was at all provocative.

Aside from the shooting, if you ran into an American church on a Sunday and shouted out "Evolution is fact!!!" you may just get lynched.
So I should probably warn my son to leave his new favourite t-shirt this side of the pond should he manage to convince us a trip to US a good holiday destination...Name:  image.jpg
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  #267  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Of course I don't condone the shooting but I can't imagine why you couldn't see that the drawing competition was at all provocative.

Aside from the shooting, if you ran into an American church on a Sunday and shouted out "Evolution is fact!!!" you may just get lynched.
Provocative; I just do not see the sense of it.

Suppose as an extreme example I get together with some other people who belong to no religion and we announce we find religious observance to be highly offensive.
Then some nutjobs in our group say Church services are provocative and start running around with heavy weapons.

Crazy, oder?
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  #268  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Suppose as an extreme example I get together with some other people who belong to no religion and we announce we find religious observance to be highly offensive.
I don't think that's extreme as what the Texans did. Do you?
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  #269  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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There are different ways in which you can respond to a provocation.

For example, Mahmud Ahmadinedschad, when he was president of Iran, responded to the Danish Mohammed caricatures by inviting cartoonists of the world to participate in a Holocaust cartoon competition.

Now I don't want to defend the man and I do not approve of Holocaust cartoons. But it was a non violent way of responding to the provocation and holding up a mirror to the West by showing there are some things that are beyond discussion to some people and that it's in bad taste to make jokes of them.

The Jews of the world may have grumbled about that one but they didn't kill anyone or hold violent demonstrations over it. But that's another issue.
Mahmud Ahmadinedschad; very clever guy. If he had played his cards better he would still be in a position of power and influence.
He is a member of the Iranian Expediency Discernment Council but there are 40 members so his influence is diluted.
Otherwise he has a very low profile today, his vice president was convicted of corruption, fined and is in jail.

Ahmadinedschad did more than his share of provocation but certainly on this occasion had a good approach.
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  #270  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't think that's extreme as what the Texans did. Do you?
Chicken or egg? Is the action extreme or the reaction

For example, I draw a cartoon of a man with a beard and label it Mohammed.
People will be highly offended.

So I rub out the name and substitute Moses or Jesus.
Are people still highly offended? I assume not as the world is full of such.

Then I rub out the name again and write "the God of Abraham"
Are people still highly offended? I assume not as the world is full of such.

Then I rub out the name again and write "Allah"
Are people still highly offended? I assume so?

Always the same drawing just label changes; makes no sense to me
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  #271  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I believe the event was created and hosted by the American Freedom Defense Initiative as a demonstration against events like Charlie Hebdo. It is headed by a New Yorker. It just happened to be held in Texas. But the Texans do have a saying, "Don't mess with Texas".
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  #272  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So I should probably warn my son to leave his new favourite t-shirt this side of the pond should he manage to convince us a trip to US a good holiday destination...Attachment 99116
Nice one. Where'd he get it?
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  #273  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I believe the event was created and hosted by the American Freedom Defense Initiative as a demonstration against events like Charlie Hebdo. It is headed by a New Yorker. It just happened to be held in Texas. But the Texans do have a saying, "Don't mess with Texas".
Will they be hosting a "Draw Jesus as a Faggot" event any time soon?
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  #274  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is irrelevent. These guys were planning on shooting up this conference because they felt Islam was being insulted. It's happened before and it will happen again. Somehow Islam makes these bold claims whereby illustrating the prophet is prohibited. Observent Muslims are free to refrain from doing this, however in this part of the world they have absolutley no right to stop anyone else from doing this.

*Mods, can you move this to Charlie Hebdo now as it's clearly more related to that topic?
Charlie Hebdo has done cartoons on different subjects and we know very well their stance on religion and secularism, whereases this contest was clearly about Islam only .. Nope, I don't really think they're related...I actually think they used this sad precedent to advance their agenda with the secret hope that some religious zealots will raise to the bait and prove their point. Irresponsible.
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  #275  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:21
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Charlie Hebdo has done cartoons on different subjects and we know very well their stance on religion and secularism, whereases this contest was clearly about Islam only .. Nope, I don't really think they're related...I actually think they used this sad precedent to advance their agenda with the secret hope that some religious zealots will raise to the bait and prove their point. Irresponsible.
From the news story on yahoo:

"Geller told the AP before Sunday's event that she planned the contest to make a stand for free speech in response to outcries and violence over drawings of Muhammad. She said in a statement issued after the shooting that it showed how "needed our event really was."

……..

Geller's group is known for mounting a campaign against the building of an Islamic center blocks from the World Trade Center site and for buying advertising space in cities across the U.S. criticizing Islam.

When a Chicago-based nonprofit held a January fundraiser in Garland designed to help Muslims combat negative depictions of their faith, Geller spearheaded about 1,000 picketers at the event. One chanted: "Go back to your own countries! We don't want you here!"….."
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  #276  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:21
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Charlie Hebdo has done cartoons on different subjects and we know very well their stance on religion and secularism, whereases this contest was clearly about Islam only .. Nope, I don't really think they're related...I actually think they used this sad precedent to advance their agenda with the secret hope that some religious zealots will raise to the bait and prove their point. Irresponsible.
It was attacked because they were exercising their right to freedom of expression, which had upset a couple of people. Exactly the same reason behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

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Will they be hosting a "Draw Jesus as a Faggot" event any time soon?
Would a place get shot up if they did?
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  #277  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It was attacked because they were exercising their right to freedom of expression, which had upset a couple of people. Exactly the same reason behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
I support freedom of expression as well - but that doesn't mean I'll be burning the Swiss flag at the next Schwingfest, for example. Sure, they have a right to free speech, but the event was intended to provoke a response.
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  #278  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:40
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I support freedom of expression as well - but that doesn't mean I'll be burning the Swiss flag at the next Schwingfest, for example. Sure, they have a right to free speech, but the event was intended to provoke a response.
But it's your right to do it should you so wish. Many British flags have been burned on London's streets during protests by Islamoloonies. And according to the law that's their right (for the moment). No one was shot for doing so.
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  #279  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Oh, Crusaders did it in the 1800s, so it must be okay.
Did they? They must have been fairly tired -- I wonder how effective they were. After all, they would have been at it for more than 600 years by then.
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  #280  
Old 04.05.2015, 14:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But it's your right to do it should you so wish. Many British flags have been burned on London's streets during protests by Islamoloonies. And according to the law that's their right (for the moment). No one was shot for doing so.
Thankfully not…

This event/shooting turned out to be a victory, not for freedom of expression, but for the advancement of Geller and her group.

It would have been interesting if the US Muslim community had the foresight to turn this around, and been there picketing themselves at the event. Not against the cartoonists, but supporting the right to free speech. (In a 'we think you're a bunch of insensitive idiots, but we'll support your rights while stealing your good press and destroying your intentions' kind of way.)
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