Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #261  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:05
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 9,253
Groaned at 181 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 17,625 Times in 7,484 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
About "I assume it was supposed to be provocative."
Indeed, in which case both sides achieved some objectives but at the price of human life. I assume there was a heavy (maybe hidden?) police presence so they stood no chance anyway of killing anyone.

If the Nutjobs were true believers they would leave it to their Boss to strike down the offenders or send them to Hell for a thousand years or whatever is the Punishment du Jour.
There are different ways in which you can respond to a provocation.

For example, Mahmud Ahmadinedschad, when he was president of Iran, responded to the Danish Mohammed caricatures by inviting cartoonists of the world to participate in a Holocaust cartoon competition.

Now I don't want to defend the man and I do not approve of Holocaust cartoons. But it was a non violent way of responding to the provocation and holding up a mirror to the West by showing there are some things that are beyond discussion to some people and that it's in bad taste to make jokes of them.

The Jews of the world may have grumbled about that one but they didn't kill anyone or hold violent demonstrations over it. But that's another issue.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #262  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:08
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 11,591
Groaned at 316 Times in 253 Posts
Thanked 16,075 Times in 6,580 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
But it was this pair that ran to this conference with the purpose of shooting it up. If they'd ran in and shouted "Allahu Akbar", they wouldn't have been lynched, rather laughed at. Your comprison makes no sense.
How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:13
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?

I have. Have you? Do you know anyone who has? I didn't get lynched, but only told that "Jesus loves you". Seriously.
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:23
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: directly above center of earth
Posts: 1,268
Groaned at 140 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 3,382 Times in 1,344 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?
In Texas, no less?

They would have likely faced the same outcome…(shot as they ran in shouting - presumed guilty) The cartoon contest was surely thought up as a way of antagonizing the Muslim community. And the crazy Texans taking part were probably armed to the teeth, with many secretly hoping that something just like this shooting would take place. Drawing Mohammed cartoons isn't exactly a normal pastime/hobby like a stamp convention, baseball card show, or gun show.

I'd like to think that the people were trying to open up an intellectual discussion, but more realistically believe that they are more inclined to be racist, xenophobic, self-righteous, gun-toting, bible-thumping right wingers looking for a chance to start the battle of Armageddon.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #265  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:24
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,762
Groaned at 499 Times in 305 Posts
Thanked 7,915 Times in 3,106 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
How are you so sure they would have got laughed at?

Have you ever made a joke about Christianity in the U.S?
This is irrelevent. These guys were planning on shooting up this conference because they felt Islam was being insulted. It's happened before and it will happen again. Somehow Islam makes these bold claims whereby illustrating the prophet is prohibited. Observent Muslims are free to refrain from doing this, however in this part of the world they have absolutley no right to stop anyone else from doing this.

*Mods, can you move this to Charlie Hebdo now as it's clearly more related to that topic?

Last edited by Loz1983; 04.05.2015 at 12:26. Reason: Thread move request
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 04.05.2015, 12:24
Tasebo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wald, Zurich/Stockholm
Posts: 1,248
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 1,367 Times in 678 Posts
Tasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond reputeTasebo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Of course I don't condone the shooting but I can't imagine why you couldn't see that the drawing competition was at all provocative.

Aside from the shooting, if you ran into an American church on a Sunday and shouted out "Evolution is fact!!!" you may just get lynched.
So I should probably warn my son to leave his new favourite t-shirt this side of the pond should he manage to convince us a trip to US a good holiday destination...Name:  image.jpg
Views: 241
Size:  10.5 KB
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Tasebo for this useful post:
  #267  
Old 04.05.2015, 13:09
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,584
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,611 Times in 6,343 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Of course I don't condone the shooting but I can't imagine why you couldn't see that the drawing competition was at all provocative.

Aside from the shooting, if you ran into an American church on a Sunday and shouted out "Evolution is fact!!!" you may just get lynched.
Provocative; I just do not see the sense of it.

Suppose as an extreme example I get together with some other people who belong to no religion and we announce we find religious observance to be highly offensive.
Then some nutjobs in our group say Church services are provocative and start running around with heavy weapons.

Crazy, oder?
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old 04.05.2015, 13:24
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 11,591
Groaned at 316 Times in 253 Posts
Thanked 16,075 Times in 6,580 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Suppose as an extreme example I get together with some other people who belong to no religion and we announce we find religious observance to be highly offensive.
I don't think that's extreme as what the Texans did. Do you?
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old 04.05.2015, 13:26
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,584
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,611 Times in 6,343 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
There are different ways in which you can respond to a provocation.

For example, Mahmud Ahmadinedschad, when he was president of Iran, responded to the Danish Mohammed caricatures by inviting cartoonists of the world to participate in a Holocaust cartoon competition.

Now I don't want to defend the man and I do not approve of Holocaust cartoons. But it was a non violent way of responding to the provocation and holding up a mirror to the West by showing there are some things that are beyond discussion to some people and that it's in bad taste to make jokes of them.

The Jews of the world may have grumbled about that one but they didn't kill anyone or hold violent demonstrations over it. But that's another issue.
Mahmud Ahmadinedschad; very clever guy. If he had played his cards better he would still be in a position of power and influence.
He is a member of the Iranian Expediency Discernment Council but there are 40 members so his influence is diluted.
Otherwise he has a very low profile today, his vice president was convicted of corruption, fined and is in jail.

Ahmadinedschad did more than his share of provocation but certainly on this occasion had a good approach.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #270  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:00
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,584
Groaned at 249 Times in 215 Posts
Thanked 11,611 Times in 6,343 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
I don't think that's extreme as what the Texans did. Do you?
Chicken or egg? Is the action extreme or the reaction

For example, I draw a cartoon of a man with a beard and label it Mohammed.
People will be highly offended.

So I rub out the name and substitute Moses or Jesus.
Are people still highly offended? I assume not as the world is full of such.

Then I rub out the name again and write "the God of Abraham"
Are people still highly offended? I assume not as the world is full of such.

Then I rub out the name again and write "Allah"
Are people still highly offended? I assume so?

Always the same drawing just label changes; makes no sense to me
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #271  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:08
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I believe the event was created and hosted by the American Freedom Defense Initiative as a demonstration against events like Charlie Hebdo. It is headed by a New Yorker. It just happened to be held in Texas. But the Texans do have a saying, "Don't mess with Texas".
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:12
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,935
Groaned at 115 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 15,962 Times in 5,631 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
So I should probably warn my son to leave his new favourite t-shirt this side of the pond should he manage to convince us a trip to US a good holiday destination...Attachment 99116
Nice one. Where'd he get it?
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:14
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy McModface
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,514
Groaned at 57 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 8,956 Times in 3,297 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
I believe the event was created and hosted by the American Freedom Defense Initiative as a demonstration against events like Charlie Hebdo. It is headed by a New Yorker. It just happened to be held in Texas. But the Texans do have a saying, "Don't mess with Texas".
Will they be hosting a "Draw Jesus as a Faggot" event any time soon?
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:16
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 6,384
Groaned at 221 Times in 172 Posts
Thanked 7,920 Times in 4,276 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
This is irrelevent. These guys were planning on shooting up this conference because they felt Islam was being insulted. It's happened before and it will happen again. Somehow Islam makes these bold claims whereby illustrating the prophet is prohibited. Observent Muslims are free to refrain from doing this, however in this part of the world they have absolutley no right to stop anyone else from doing this.

*Mods, can you move this to Charlie Hebdo now as it's clearly more related to that topic?
Charlie Hebdo has done cartoons on different subjects and we know very well their stance on religion and secularism, whereases this contest was clearly about Islam only .. Nope, I don't really think they're related...I actually think they used this sad precedent to advance their agenda with the secret hope that some religious zealots will raise to the bait and prove their point. Irresponsible.
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:21
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: directly above center of earth
Posts: 1,268
Groaned at 140 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 3,382 Times in 1,344 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Charlie Hebdo has done cartoons on different subjects and we know very well their stance on religion and secularism, whereases this contest was clearly about Islam only .. Nope, I don't really think they're related...I actually think they used this sad precedent to advance their agenda with the secret hope that some religious zealots will raise to the bait and prove their point. Irresponsible.
From the news story on yahoo:

"Geller told the AP before Sunday's event that she planned the contest to make a stand for free speech in response to outcries and violence over drawings of Muhammad. She said in a statement issued after the shooting that it showed how "needed our event really was."

……..

Geller's group is known for mounting a campaign against the building of an Islamic center blocks from the World Trade Center site and for buying advertising space in cities across the U.S. criticizing Islam.

When a Chicago-based nonprofit held a January fundraiser in Garland designed to help Muslims combat negative depictions of their faith, Geller spearheaded about 1,000 picketers at the event. One chanted: "Go back to your own countries! We don't want you here!"….."
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:21
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,762
Groaned at 499 Times in 305 Posts
Thanked 7,915 Times in 3,106 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Charlie Hebdo has done cartoons on different subjects and we know very well their stance on religion and secularism, whereases this contest was clearly about Islam only .. Nope, I don't really think they're related...I actually think they used this sad precedent to advance their agenda with the secret hope that some religious zealots will raise to the bait and prove their point. Irresponsible.
It was attacked because they were exercising their right to freedom of expression, which had upset a couple of people. Exactly the same reason behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

Quote:
View Post
Will they be hosting a "Draw Jesus as a Faggot" event any time soon?
Would a place get shot up if they did?
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:27
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: directly above center of earth
Posts: 1,268
Groaned at 140 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 3,382 Times in 1,344 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
It was attacked because they were exercising their right to freedom of expression, which had upset a couple of people. Exactly the same reason behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
I support freedom of expression as well - but that doesn't mean I'll be burning the Swiss flag at the next Schwingfest, for example. Sure, they have a right to free speech, but the event was intended to provoke a response.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #278  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:40
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,762
Groaned at 499 Times in 305 Posts
Thanked 7,915 Times in 3,106 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
I support freedom of expression as well - but that doesn't mean I'll be burning the Swiss flag at the next Schwingfest, for example. Sure, they have a right to free speech, but the event was intended to provoke a response.
But it's your right to do it should you so wish. Many British flags have been burned on London's streets during protests by Islamoloonies. And according to the law that's their right (for the moment). No one was shot for doing so.
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:42
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,975 Times in 5,331 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Oh, Crusaders did it in the 1800s, so it must be okay.
Did they? They must have been fairly tired -- I wonder how effective they were. After all, they would have been at it for more than 600 years by then.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #280  
Old 04.05.2015, 15:45
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: directly above center of earth
Posts: 1,268
Groaned at 140 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 3,382 Times in 1,344 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
But it's your right to do it should you so wish. Many British flags have been burned on London's streets during protests by Islamoloonies. And according to the law that's their right (for the moment). No one was shot for doing so.
Thankfully not…

This event/shooting turned out to be a victory, not for freedom of expression, but for the advancement of Geller and her group.

It would have been interesting if the US Muslim community had the foresight to turn this around, and been there picketing themselves at the event. Not against the cartoonists, but supporting the right to free speech. (In a 'we think you're a bunch of insensitive idiots, but we'll support your rights while stealing your good press and destroying your intentions' kind of way.)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
florida, gay, isis, killed, muslim students, shooting, usa




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My boss is a.......(fill in the gap) goombie General off-topic 35 28.01.2011 15:55
Recreational Shooting in the Geneva canton MAWLER Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 9 31.08.2010 17:04
What just happened please i could not access the forum Sutter Forum support 44 25.05.2009 20:03
Do I need to fill in Tax forms for the US? Roe Finance/banking/taxation 14 18.06.2008 19:17
What's just happened to the Swiss Franc? Tim Finance/banking/taxation 7 08.05.2007 17:24


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0