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  #3241  
Old 21.02.2018, 13:28
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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* By "Minor" I mean measures like:
No semi auto
No assault rifles
No flash suppressors
Limited capacity magazine
No bump stock
Sorry Jag, but all of those things would help reduce the amount of deaths, and thats what people are going for:

No Semi-Auto means it takes longer to get each shot off, thus providing more time for people to escape or take cover, which in turn means a lower body count. Its also far more tiring to have to make ready the weapon after each shot. For a school shooter, it would mean a drastic reduction in the speed at which they are able to fire rounds.

No Assault Rifles means that weapons that are designed to inflict maximum damage in the minimum of time are not introduced to people who do not care to or know how to control the damage. A mass killing with a double barrel shotgun, that must be cracked and reloaded after every shot and is ineffective at large distance would be far far more difficult and have a much lower body count.

No Flash suppressors: Before you hear a gunshot, you see the flash. The flash is usually what gives away the shooter, not the sound. No flash suppressor means the shooter is easier for potential victims and police to spot, meaning he can be avoided or dealt with quicker. This translate to a lower body count.

Limited Capacity Magazine: if a magazine has only 5 or 10 rounds, someone would need to purchase lots of magazines in order to have a high body count. If someone walks into a gun store and buys 20 5-round magazines, that will raise suspicions, possibly allowing for the right people to be alerted before the mass shooting takes place.

Bump Stocks are literally designed to maximize the amount of damage done by firearms, as well as reduce the accuracy - both of which result in higher body counts when the weapon is fired at a group of people.

Nobody serious is suggesting we ban guns. What people want is a return to the reasoning of the second amendment - the ability to defend yourself and your community. That does not require full auto assault rifles with drum magazines and flash suppressors.
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  #3242  
Old 21.02.2018, 13:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Perspective:

An AR-15 style rifle with a bump stock has a cyclic fire rate of around 600 rounds per minute.

A 30 round magazine is therefore expended in 3 seconds.

Lets assume the first bullet of that 30 narrowly misses you and hits the wall behind you.

In the time it takes you to recognize it, realize what has happened, realize what you need to do, and to actually do it (ie, get in cover), there are likely another 29 bullets behind that first one.

That first bullet missed, and you were unharmed. But the possibility of the remaining 29 missing as well is very slim indeed.

Every one of those bullets can kill you. So, before you realize what is even going on, someone has tried to kill you 30 times.

That's 1 magazine. Imagine if the shooter has 10.

Now imagine the shooter is in a school, around hundreds of kids that dont know what to do, and even those that do are in shock.

And imagine the damage caused when 25 kids are hiding in the same room, in very close proximity to each other.

That, ladies and gentleman, is not a school anymore. Its a massacre.
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  #3243  
Old 21.02.2018, 13:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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..... However, we now have a small number of live samples to study, which is not the usual M.O. of mass killers, so let's study every aspect of them and learn from them. What do they have in common?
I suggest frustration, despair, craving for recognition.
And these are emotions that grow gradually. They are grave.
A person who does not succeed in anything anywhere - or is not recognized for it - will find a way and it is usually aggressive towards others (as it's the others fault. Any/all others at some point.)

That takes me back to upringing and culture. And I don't only mean guns. The easy availability of guns in the US just makes it easier to act out.
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  #3244  
Old 21.02.2018, 13:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I think people need to realise that the defence against the government aspect of the 2nd A is so far beyond the common man now, it is no longer a good excuse to hold a weapon.

You think you and your gun are going to get you out of a sticky situation if the US government/army goes rogue - forget it, you'll be melted before you've even unlocked your gun safe.
This is of course, the great Irony.

The second amendment was designed to protect a community in case the rulers of the time decided to send in professional troops to destroy that community. But this was a time when those troops would need to physically march to that community.

Fact is, if that were to happen today, the need simply use a air-dropped bomb, which would level everything and everyone in the offending town. Chances are it would be drone-deployed, so the human controlling the thing is hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Failing that, they can use tanks and armored vehicles, which even full auto rifles are useless against, and which will just as easily level everything and everyone in their path.

The second amendment is simply not relevant to the 21st century.
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  #3245  
Old 21.02.2018, 13:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Can you imagine the uproar if the shooter had been Muslim? Trump would not have been so silent
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  #3246  
Old 21.02.2018, 13:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sorry Jag, but all of those things would help reduce the amount of deaths, and thats what people are going for:
I agree, they would almost certainly reduce the death toll (and that would obviously be a good thing).

But the underlying problem (the sheer number of loonies who want to eliminate a significant number of their fellow citizens) would remain.

I was just talking to my daughter about this. Has anyone ever read of a mass poisoning at a school?

There is definitely a correlation between the gun culture and the death toll, but to treat that relationship as causal is a mistake.
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  #3247  
Old 21.02.2018, 13:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is of course, the great Irony.

The second amendment was designed to protect a community in case the rulers of the time decided to send in professional troops to destroy that community. But this was a time when those troops would need to physically march to that community.

Fact is, if that were to happen today, the need simply use a air-dropped bomb, which would level everything and everyone in the offending town. Chances are it would be drone-deployed, so the human controlling the thing is hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Failing that, they can use tanks and armored vehicles, which even full auto rifles are useless against, and which will just as easily level everything and everyone in their path.

The second amendment is simply not relevant to the 21st century.
Yes.
But you're using logic.

Why do you think the Americans never created a word of their own for "logic" or changed it's spelling?
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  #3248  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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There is definitely a correlation between the gun culture and the death toll, but to treat that relationship as causal is a mistake.
This is the straw man the gun nuts use to stop the evolution of gun laws.

No one serious is saying that guns cause mass shootings and therefore all guns should be banned.

The fact is though, guns enable mass shootings.

And guns that have been modified specifically for mass shootings only maximize the casualties when such shootings occur.

You cannot legislate to have every depressed ex-student locked up until they are happy again, so its impossible to control the deaths by removing the person. The only alternative is to reduce the damage by limiting the tool they use.
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  #3249  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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However, we now have a small number of live samples to study, which is not the usual M.O. of mass killers, so let's study every aspect of them and learn from them. What do they have in common?

Sadly, we also have the Dickey Amendment, which in effect restricts much of the CDC's ability to research gun violence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)

---

To bring about meaningful (as in societal as well as elective and legislative) change we need to re-visit the Supreme Court decision Citizens United v. FEC (2010):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC


While lobbying interests remain far more important to our politician than the voters they represent the picture remains grim.

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  #3250  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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"When dealing with people, remember you are not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with creatures of emotion" so wrote American author Dale Carnegie
Taken totally out of context. He was writing about salesmanship.

Most likely in the context of the selling techniques of the salesmen of his time who were predominately door-to-door (encyclopedias etc).

In that type of selling, you never appeal to peoples' logic to get a sale - it's always emotion.

What's this got to do with slaughtering children?
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  #3251  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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...However, we now have a small number of live samples to study, which is not the usual M.O. of mass killers, so let's study every aspect of them and learn from them. What do they have in common?
Almost all appear to have tortured or killed small animals and pets when they were younger.

That applies to psychopaths who didn't use guns too.

This is thought to be due to a lack of empathy.
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  #3252  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

tortured or killed small animals. Small animals are tortured and killed en mass in the millions every day of the year and by adults!




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Almost all appear to have tortured or killed small animals and pets when they were younger.

That applies to psychopaths who didn't use guns too.

This is thought to be due to a lack of empathy.
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  #3253  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Can you imagine the uproar if the shooter had been Muslim? Trump would not have been so silent
Muslim - Islam would be blamed.
Black - BLM would be blamed.
Foreign - Immigration would be blamed


But he was none of those things, so the focus (and blame) is dropped onto the FBI - who cannot stop every single mass shooting.
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  #3254  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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tortured or killed small animals. Small animals are tortured and killed en mass in the millions every day of the year and by adults!
I feel like there are some steps between killing small animals and opening fire on kids in school...
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  #3255  
Old 21.02.2018, 14:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I feel like there are some steps between killing small animals and opening fire on kids in school...
It's got nothing to do with steps. It's a psychopathic trait caused by a lack of empathy. It's one of the key early warning signs.
They like violence - that's another trait.

They don't normally have access to guns (or know how to use them) until they are older.

If they didn't have access to guns at all, their kill count would undoubtedly be lower.


Some killers don't even wait until they are older (the two eleven year olds who murdered James Bulger in the U.K. for example).

I was answering BlueAngel's question, "What do they all have in common?".
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  #3256  
Old 21.02.2018, 15:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is the straw man the gun nuts use to stop the evolution of gun laws.

No one serious is saying that guns cause mass shootings and therefore all guns should be banned.

The fact is though, guns enable mass shootings.

And guns that have been modified specifically for mass shootings only maximize the casualties when such shootings occur.

You cannot legislate to have every depressed ex-student locked up until they are happy again, so its impossible to control the deaths by removing the person. The only alternative is to reduce the damage by limiting the tool they use.
While we're at it, let's have a look at what other tools we should limit as they can cause harm:

Cars can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Vans can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Knives can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Acid can cause death - BAN IT
Fertiliser can cause mass killings - BAN IT
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  #3257  
Old 21.02.2018, 15:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

People can cause mass killings-BAN THEM
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While we're at it, let's have a look at what other tools we should limit as they can cause harm:

Cars can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Vans can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Knives can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Acid can cause death - BAN IT
Fertiliser can cause mass killings - BAN IT
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  #3258  
Old 21.02.2018, 15:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Can you imagine the uproar if the shooter had been Muslim? Trump would not have been so silent
Yeah, all the people on here saying guns should be banned would be saying it has nothing to do with Islam and nothing should be done.
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  #3259  
Old 21.02.2018, 15:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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While we're at it, let's have a look at what other tools we should limit as they can cause harm:

Cars can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Vans can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Knives can cause mass killings - BAN THEM
Acid can cause death - BAN IT
Fertiliser can cause mass killings - BAN IT


First of all screaming "BAN THEM" all over the place is ridiculous - i nevere said we should ban guns, but regulate them tighter.


And secondly:


Cars - REGULATED
Vans - REGULATED
Knives - REGULATED
Acid - REGULATED
Fertiliser - REGULATED.


Literally all of those things are regulated tighter then guns, and would attract the interest of authorities if large amounts or unusual activity was spotted.


you're argument is laughable.
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Old 21.02.2018, 15:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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While we're at it, let's have a look at what other tools we should limit as they can cause harm:

Cars can cause mass killings - REGULATE THEM
Vans can cause mass killings - REGULATE THEM
Knives can cause mass killings - REGULATE THEM
Acid can cause death - REGULATE IT
Fertiliser can cause mass killings - REGULATE IT
ftfy

HTH

Last edited by Sandgrounder; 21.02.2018 at 15:07. Reason: Bah! J2488 got there before me... :)
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