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  #461  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The problem with gun control is it is premised on passing laws that prohibit sales and ownership of guns by certain people. But the only people who would adhere to such laws are law-abiding citizens. Criminals and psychos do not follow laws, so renders the passing of any such laws moot. I don't believe NRA members typically commit violent crimes.

So it is a nice sentiment, somewhat naive, but not realistically applicable.
I am not so much for gun control, but fixing the fundamentals of society. Which is why we get to a point where people are using the guns as a way of expression.
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  #462  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The problem with gun control is it is premised on passing laws that prohibit sales and ownership of guns by certain people. But the only people who would adhere to such laws are law-abiding citizens. Criminals and psychos do not follow laws, so renders the passing of any such laws moot. I don't believe NRA members typically commit violent crimes.

So it is a nice sentiment, somewhat naive, but not realistically applicable.
Nonsense. Gun control looks to remove guns from the general public and all those who really don't *need* (in an objective sense) guns. Look at the Australian gun control legislation if you want to see how it should be done.

Effective gun control not only limits the sale (or possibility of acquisition) of guns, but also removes guns from circulation. In Australia, the government bought back guns from the general public and introduced an amnesty after that, in which guns could be surrendered. Sure, the criminals aren't going to give up their guns, but fewer guns on the street ultimately equates to fewer guns in criminals' hands, and as criminals are incrementally but inexorably relieved of their firearms, everyone gets just that little bit safer.

in any case, gun crime is not even the biggest part of the American gun death problem. Look at the statistics that Urs Max provided -- suicide by gunshot is the biggest contributor to gun death numbers in the US, and was also in Australia. If memory serves me correctly, the incidence of suicide with a firearm reduced by 75% in Australia immediately following the enactment of gun control legislation. And before you retort, the overall level of suicide dropped too. Once free access to "the easy way out" was removed, potentially suicidal people apparently re-thought their position.

Gun control IS effective.
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  #463  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Yeah true, if the answer was so easy that it is was just one thing we would've had this wrapped up years ago. America does realise there is a problem. It's why we are talking about it all the time, for years and years.
the one thing that gives me hope is that, despite the fact that the number of guns in circulation continues to increase, the % of Americans who own a gun has been steadily decreasing, as has the % of American households in which a gun is present. in other words, it's the same damned Americans buying more and more guns, but the percentages suggest that Americans, in the aggregate, are getting the message. very slowly and over the course of generations, sadly, but at least it is the right kind of momentum.
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  #464  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So let them have it, let them kill each other like savages, and to people that don't like it, I'm sorry but you seem to be stuck. Just duck for cover and do what you can to survive...
Yes, it is something like that, although it is not of any relevance whether you let or not let. You actually don't have much of a choice in the matter. It is a different reality from say, Switzerland.
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  #465  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Nonsense. Gun control looks to remove guns from the general public and all those who really don't *need* (in an objective sense) guns. Look at the Australian gun control legislation if you want to see how it should be done.

Effective gun control not only limits the sale (or possibility of acquisition) of guns, but also removes guns from circulation. In Australia, the government bought back guns from the general public and introduced an amnesty after that, in which guns could be surrendered. Sure, the criminals aren't going to give up their guns, but fewer guns on the street ultimately equates to fewer guns in criminals' hands, and as criminals are incrementally but inexorably relieved of their firearms, everyone gets just that little bit safer.

in any case, gun crime is not even the biggest part of the American gun death problem. Look at the statistics that Urs Max provided -- suicide by gunshot is the biggest contributor to gun death numbers in the US, and was also in Australia. If memory serves me correctly, the incidence of suicide with a firearm reduced by 75% in Australia immediately following the enactment of gun control legislation. And before you retort, the overall level of suicide dropped too. Once free access to "the easy way out" was removed, potentially suicidal people apparently re-thought their position.

Gun control IS effective.
America is not Australia. America can't even control its own borders. To be honest with you, the government has very little control over a LOT of things in America. But this you would-t really know unless you have some insight of what life is truly like in America.



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I am not so much for gun control, but fixing the fundamentals of society. Which is why we get to a point where people are using the guns as a way of expression.
Absolutely. This......

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the one thing that gives me hope is that, despite the fact that the number of guns in circulation continues to increase, the % of Americans who own a gun has been steadily decreasing, as has the % of American households in which a gun is present. in other words, it's the same damned Americans buying more and more guns, but the percentages suggest that Americans, in the aggregate, are getting the message. very slowly and over the course of generations, sadly, but at least it is the right kind of momentum.
Because the solution to this is not government legislation. Even if they were able to control some guns, perpetrators will resort to baseball bats, axes, or bombs anyway. The problem here is really a cultural and psychological condition. These are only addressed at the personal level.
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  #466  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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America is not Australia.
Thank God, no. But who said it was? What I said is that if you want to see what good gun control legislation looks like, and how to implement it, look at Australia's. There is no barrier to copying the process in America; it's just that the powers that be in the US don't want to. Nothing to do with "cultural differences" or "you have to live there to understand".


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Even if they were able to control some guns, perpetrators will resort to baseball bats, axes, or bombs anyway.
No, they wouldn't -- as borne out by multiple observations in places where guns have been effectively controlled.
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  #467  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Even if they were able to control some guns, perpetrators will resort to baseball bats, axes, or bombs anyway.
this statement is akin to saying, "not everybody is genetically-equipped to become a rocket scientist, so we shouldn't bother educating anyone."
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  #468  
Old 06.10.2015, 16:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Thank God, no. But who said it was? What I said is that if you want to see what good gun control legislation looks like, and how to implement it, look at Australia's. There is no barrier to copying the process in America; it's just that the powers that be in the US don't want to. Nothing to do with "cultural differences" or "you have to live there to understand".

No, they wouldn't -- as borne out by multiple observations in places where guns have been effectively controlled.
That would require a vast over-reach of US government intrusion into the personal lives of law-abiding citizens, which is why it has not happened, and is resisted. Its not desired by Americans to give government so much control over their lives. Australia and Europeans can accept that for themselves as they wish, but those are their sentiments, not American's. Americans don;t really trust government. Its in their psychological make-up.
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  #469  
Old 06.10.2015, 17:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It's like the poor and so called illegals, they can't really afford a representative voice, so they are easily picked on by more powerful groups. The NRA represents voters who are swift at the polls. You need an anti gun lobby that has the same with their voters. Which normally would be Dems...pot smoking city slickers who talk alot about voting and and equal rights but forget to actually ever express their voice unless a total wack job runs on the right...even still GW was elected twice.

Not all powerful lobbying groups are on the right. The left also gets a good share of lobbying money - and don't assume they're doing nothing in return.

The Hillary campaign has accepted campaign funds from among others, private prisons, GMO corporations and the oil industry.

Some of these corporations are actually splitting their support to hedge their bets.

Why is it again that people are growing tired of the cyniscism in politics?
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  #470  
Old 06.10.2015, 17:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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That would require a vast over-reach of US government intrusion into the personal lives of law-abiding citizens, which is why it has not happened, and is resisted. Its not desired by Americans to give government so much control over their lives. Australia and Europeans can accept that for themselves as they wish, but those are their sentiments, not American's. Americans don;t really trust government. Its in their psychological make-up.
Don't you think you might need some insight of what life is truly like in Australia before making sweeping generalisations?
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  #471  
Old 06.10.2015, 18:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Don't you think you might need some insight of what life is truly like in Australia before making sweeping generalisations?
It doesn't stop his sweeping generalisations about anything else, so I don't see why it should here
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  #472  
Old 06.10.2015, 18:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Well it obviously passed in Australia, and can't be passed in the US. Nothing sweepingly generalised about that. Perhaps you're doing the sweeping generalization.
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  #473  
Old 06.10.2015, 18:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Americans don;t really trust government. Its in their psychological make-up.
Yes, we all know that. Why trust something you democratically vote in when you can true a mythical entity instead?

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  #474  
Old 06.10.2015, 18:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

A couple of (to me) interesting facts on guns by the WP

I'm not sure if this has been linked already, but one of its charts definitely warrants being included directly:

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Old 06.10.2015, 18:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

First of all, in Australia, you had a mandatory confiscation of privately owned guns, with a cash incentive. That will never happen in the US.

Secondly, after the population was disarmed, violent crime went up. Homicide stayed at the same rate, and did not drop. But robbery shot up, as well as sexual assault:
http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.html

Lately, gun licenses and ownership have increased, yet it has not increased the rate of violent crime.

So the link between gun ownership and violent crime isn't really as tightly coupled together as suggested. Perhaps the random shooting sprees. But I-m sure mass murderers are still able to kill just the same.
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Old 06.10.2015, 18:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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A couple of (to me) interesting facts on guns by the WP

I'm not sure if this has been linked already, but one of its charts definitely warrants being included directly:

A correlation is not a causation.

Further analysis would be requird to break down to what extent some of these people may actually own guns because the high homicide rate scares them.

This graph (from the Uk) would appear to tell a different story

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Old 06.10.2015, 18:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I don't think suicide is germaine to the topic of guns and crime either, as people can commit suicide without guns. Yet they are in those statistics. That is probably the biggest accomplishment the Australian gun laws boast, a decline in suicide with firearms.

More specifically about Australia's gun law:
Gun laws fall short in war on crime
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  #478  
Old 06.10.2015, 20:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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in Australia, you had a mandatory confiscation of privately owned guns, with a cash incentive. That will never happen in the US.
And you know this because...? What makes you think that Australians love their government (they don't, and certainly not the Prime Minister at the time of the gun control legislation -- John Howard)? I'll bet nobody in Australia would have believed that the people would tolerate "mandatory confiscation of privately owned guns" prior to the Port Arthur Massacre.
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I don't think suicide is germaine to the topic of guns and crime either, as people can commit suicide without guns. Yet they are in those statistics. That is probably the biggest accomplishment the Australian gun laws boast, a decline in suicide with firearms.
I said that. Gun suicide accounted for more than half the gun deaths in Australia prior to the ban. And suicide rates went down after the ban Simple mathematics -- lives saved.

Oh, and of the remaining gun crime, most is criminally-motivated and much of that is criminal vs criminal, which engenders much less sympathy (from me) than the murder of innocents.

But I don't know what Germaine has to do with it, although I'm fairly sure she'd be anti-gun (as long as guns are perceived as men's toys).
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  #479  
Old 06.10.2015, 20:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I said that. Gun suicide accounted for more than half the gun deaths in Australia prior to the ban. And suicide rates went down after the ban Simple mathematics -- lives saved.

Oh, and of the remaining gun crime, most is criminally-motivated and much of that is criminal vs criminal, which engenders much less sympathy (from me) than the murder of innocents.

But I don't know what Germaine has to do with it, although I'm fairly sure she'd be anti-gun (as long as guns are perceived as men's toys).
The problem is that its not true. Suicide rates are at a 10 year peak. Its the leading cause of death for Australians between 15 to 44:
https://www.lifeline.org.au/About-Li...ide-Statistics

Robbery, Kidnapping, Manslaughter and Sexual Assaults peaked in the years after the ban. So these are all criminal victims, are they?

Gun control advocates are lauding the Australian law as a model for the US, but it doesn't fit the US. Its newspeak for mandatory gun confiscation. It doesn't even seem fit Australia either.
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Old 06.10.2015, 21:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I think the US has so much guns in circulation at this point, that bans and regulations would make little sense.
It would take generations to remove even a single-digit percentage of them from general availability.
Not accounting for that fact that millions are produced every year in addition to the once already in place...

So, yes, it's realistically a lost cause.

But if you think you've got the worst behind you: think again and look over the border to Mexico.
You've got a front-row seat to what amounts to a formerly civilized society tearing itself up from the inside, taking everything and everybody with it.
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