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  #481  
Old 06.10.2015, 21:21
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

so sad...
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  #482  
Old 06.10.2015, 21:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Interesting article in the New York Times on the disconnect between what the NRA forces down the USA's throat and what its members want.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/op...peaks-for.html

A cynical trade organization vaguely pretending to be democratic. Keep on shooting those kids!
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  #483  
Old 06.10.2015, 21:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Article reinforcing Phos's point that if guns are banned, someone will just invent an automated, super accurate knife thrower.

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/you...-invent--51477
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  #484  
Old 06.10.2015, 21:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The problem is that its not true. Suicide rates are at a 10 year peak. Its the leading cause of death for Australians between 15 to 44:
https://www.lifeline.org.au/About-Li...ide-Statistics.
Of course suicides have reached a 10 year peak. That's in line with the growth in population. I bet they'll reach a 15 year peak in five years, too.

And what else are young-to-middle-aged people going to die of? "Accidents" is the only other likely category.

That page that you linked (which is from a suicide prevention charity, by the way, with no attribution) says the suicide rate rose from 2011 to 2012. It says nothing about any other year. Again, I'll bet that 2012 figure was a spike. The Port Arthur Massacre was nearly 20 years ago. Have you seen the statistics for gun deaths (including suicides) in Australia over the entire period since 1996?

Most importantly, the Lifeline statistics say absolutely NOTHING about the use of firearms in suicides (or any other form of killing).
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  #485  
Old 06.10.2015, 22:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The old adage is "guns don't kill people, people kill people" - which is very true, sit a loaded gun on a table and as long as no one touches it, no one will get shot. The trouble is that doesn't happen.
Sadly a loaded gun on the table is often touched (story from today).

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/p...er-12-34276586

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The sheriff said the men had three loaded weapons on a picnic table Friday afternoon and were discussing one when the younger boy picked up one of the guns and it fired. The older boy was struck in the head and died at the scene. No one else was hurt.
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  #486  
Old 06.10.2015, 22:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Have you seen the statistics for gun deaths (including suicides) in Australia over the entire period since 1996?
No, but I think you have to discount suicide. And here is where the effect of the Australian law is deputed. Very difficult to attribute decline in murder to the gun law, but easier to attribute rise of other crimes to it. Not every finds the argument credible.

Another couple of things as well is volume. I don't know how many guns the government confiscated. The US probably has hundreds of millions. And then, finally, Australian law allowed for the confiscation, while US law does not. I don't think its comparable.
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  #487  
Old 07.10.2015, 00:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't think suicide is germaine to the topic of guns and crime either, as people can commit suicide without guns. Yet they are in those statistics. That is probably the biggest accomplishment the Australian gun laws boast, a decline in suicide with firearms.

More specifically about Australia's gun law:
Gun laws fall short in war on crime
Kurt Cobaine tried with pills and drugs a few times before a shotgun worked. Then again I know a girl back in Detroit, that loaded a 357 magnum into her mouth and pulled the trigger, tearing everything out of the back of her neck and face, but basically missing her vertebrae and brain. So she is in permanent psych ward for the rest of her life. So yeah, guns aren't always to blame for suicides. But, they sure make a mess out of things when people do try. And definitely harder to go back on the decision once the trigger is pulled.
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  #488  
Old 07.10.2015, 00:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Guns are definitely more spectacular, and shooting events certainly gain more media attention. Definitely more grisly and stoke emotionality.

What is difficult to ascertain is if whether gun ownership attributes to more or less violent criminal incidents. The increase of gun ownership in the US also coincide with decrease in crimes. Survivors of these shooting incidents have been quoted as wishing someone had a gun during the incident.

The public conversations are typically slanted for political spin. Here's an example fact check between Obama's and Fiorina's politcal statements. Obama uses the words "gun deaths" and Fiorina uses "gun crime rates". Two very different definitions. Neither one can be confirmed nor refuted:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...and_crime.html
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  #489  
Old 07.10.2015, 03:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The public conversations are typically slanted for political spin. Here's an example fact check between Obama's and Fiorina's politcal statements. Obama uses the words "gun deaths" and Fiorina uses "gun crime rates". Two very different definitions. Neither one can be confirmed nor refuted:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/br...and_crime.html
Now you're getting ridiculously semantic. That article says that there is clear correlation between stringent gun laws and reduction in gun deaths, but, technically, one cannot prove causation (because it would not be ethical to conduct a "placebo-controlled" study). But the facts are right there: tighter gun controls result in fewer gun deaths. Fiorina's statement is that there's no point in having strict controls if they're not enforced. She is not arguing against gun controls.

So what's your point? And why are you such a strong advocate for gun ownership?

By the way, the Australian government didn't confiscate guns, it bought them. If I recall correctly, 650,000 guns were taken out of circulation. The population of Australia was around 18.3 million at that time. Extrapolating to the current-day U.S., the task would be the removal of 11.3 million guns from Americans. Not difficult, it's a simple extrapolation based on the differences in population size. More people to collect weapons from, but equally, more people to do the collecting. Next, you'll be telling me that it's all well and good for a sparsely-populated country like Australia to have electricity and running water, but in a country of 320 million...

Essentially, you're just wailing that such a thing can't be done in America as it''s an affront to the civil liberties and freedoms of American citizens -- that may work for those docile colonial Australians, but the sinewy, morally superior Americans would never stand for being ridden over roughshod! Right? So tell me about speed limits in the U.S. Why do they have them, and how did those freedom-curbing restrictions come to be?
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  #490  
Old 07.10.2015, 04:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Now you're getting ridiculously semantic. That article says that there is clear correlation between stringent gun laws and reduction in gun deaths, but, technically, one cannot prove causation (because it would not be ethical to conduct a "placebo-controlled" study). But the facts are right there: tighter gun controls result in fewer gun deaths. Fiorina's statement is that there's no point in having strict controls if they're not enforced. She is not arguing against gun controls.

So what's your point? And why are you such a strong advocate for gun ownership?

By the way, the Australian government didn't confiscate guns, it bought them. If I recall correctly, 650,000 guns were taken out of circulation. The population of Australia was around 18.3 million at that time. Extrapolating to the current-day U.S., the task would be the removal of 11.3 million guns from Americans. Not difficult, it's a simple extrapolation based on the differences in population size. More people to collect weapons from, but equally, more people to do the collecting. Next, you'll be telling me that it's all well and good for a sparsely-populated country like Australia to have electricity and running water, but in a country of 320 million...

Essentially, you're just wailing that such a thing can't be done in America as it''s an affront to the civil liberties and freedoms of American citizens -- that may work for those docile colonial Australians, but the sinewy, morally superior Americans would never stand for being ridden over roughshod! Right? So tell me about speed limits in the U.S. Why do they have them, and how did those freedom-curbing restrictions come to be?
Speed limits. ..really? The right to bare arms isn't just about protection on the frontier, state rights, or self defense. It's embedded in the Jeffersonian ideal of if a government impedes on our basic rights it's our duty to over throw it. Hence the American Revolution. You can't do that without arms (rifles, guns). It's imbeded in our psyche. Bullsh*t to compare it to Australia and speed limits.
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  #491  
Old 07.10.2015, 09:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Speed limits. ..really? The right to bare arms isn't just about protection on the frontier, state rights, or self defense. It's embedded in the Jeffersonian ideal of if a government impedes on our basic rights it's our duty to over throw it. Hence the American Revolution. You can't do that without arms (rifles, guns). It's imbeded in our psyche. Bullsh*t to compare it to Australia and speed limits.
And what happens when someone or a group of people take up arms against the US government - the FBI, NSA, CIA, KFC, DEA, TSA and AAA come down on the arses in helicopter gunships and swat vans - and they have 100 snipers pointed at them.

The line is born out of the fact the government of the time wasn't "fairly" elected by the people - it is now (except a Bush administration) - so how about common sense be given a chance and gun control implemented?
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  #492  
Old 07.10.2015, 09:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Speed limits. ..really? The right to bare arms isn't just about protection on the frontier, state rights, or self defense. It's embedded in the Jeffersonian ideal of if a government impedes on our basic rights it's our duty to over throw it. Hence the American Revolution. You can't do that without arms (rifles, guns). It's imbeded in our psyche. Bullsh*t to compare it to Australia and speed limits.
I must have misunderstood this thread. I thought the prevailing argument was that citizens (the goodies, in the white hats) need guns to defend themselves from the baddie criminals, who have guns. And black hats. But no, actually Americans need .22 rifles and Smith & Wessons to rise up against their government, which has fully automatic firearms, tanks, chemical weapons (probably) and nuclear bombs.

So, to be clear, the politicians who in the main are pro-gun lobby have the sole aim of making sure the citizens (think they) can overthrow them whenever they do something the citizens don't like. OK, I've got it now.

Just as long as those citizens don't speed on their way to Washington.
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  #493  
Old 07.10.2015, 09:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Just as long as those citizens don't speed on their way to Washington.
And you should see the fuss they make if you do manage to get within 200yards of the White House with a musket.
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  #494  
Old 07.10.2015, 10:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Now you're getting ridiculously semantic.
.....
So what's your point? And why are you such a strong advocate for gun ownership?
....
So tell me about speed limits in the U.S. Why do they have them, and how did those freedom-curbing restrictions come to be?
So now you're being emotional and immature. What you have are purely sentiments, and not valid arguments.

-There is no causation between private gun ownership and crime. In fact, there is proof of deterrence. Gun laws do not prevent violent crimes.
-Chicago has some of the stringent gun laws, yet has the highwt gun related crimes.
-A 15 year old terrorist just shot a man in Parratta Melbourne, where you have such successful gun laws.
-The Australian gun law was a mandatory confuscation.

You're allowed your sentiments and emotions, but it is not really for an objctive 2 way conversation. Find as many people you can to agree with you. Sing sbout it if you want. Its not going to make it any more valid.
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  #495  
Old 07.10.2015, 10:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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-There is no causation between private gun ownership and crime. In fact, there is proof of deterrence. Gun laws do not prevent violent crimes.
That is a big statement to make - you may want to back it up with evidence.

It is also worth defining violent crime - it can range from someone punching someone on the nose to being shot - the statistic is the same the outcome is somewhat different.

If, as you suggest there is no correlation, then the assumption is that (by %) there are more whackjobs in America than elsewhere and/or the national psyche is screwed up in thinking violences solves problems.
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  #496  
Old 07.10.2015, 10:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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That is a big statement to make - you may want to back it up with evidence.
There is no proof of that causation. But plenty of personal sentiments and emotions.
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Old 07.10.2015, 11:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The increase of gun ownership in the US also coincide with decrease in crimes.
there are 2 things I always feel compelled to point out when people trot this "statistic" out:

1. crime rates have decreased since 1993, but 1993 was a peak year for crime due to the 15 year run of drug and gang violence in our urban centers. crime rates now are at almost exactly their historical average, and using 1993 as the baseline for statistical comparison is disingenuous.

2. the number of guns in circulation in the US has been increasing significantly over the last 20 years, but the % of Americans who own a gun has actually been decreasing significantly. the % of American households in which a gun is present has also been decreasing significantly. in other words, there are more guns because the same people keep buying more, but gun ownership as a % of total population has decreased - if anything, the decrease in gun violence as a % of population would far more closely correlate to the decrease in gun ownership as a % of population as opposed to the increase in number of guns in circulation.

EDIT: adding a link to just one of the dozens of sources from which the above information can be gleaned:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us...anted=all&_r=0
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  #498  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Causation and corellation are two different things. You can overlay any related statisicss, such as economics or per capita income, and find corellation. You can even corellate temparature data if you'd like and link it to greenhouse gases. It still doesn't prove a point.
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Old 07.10.2015, 11:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Causation and corellation are two different things. You can overlay any related statisicss, such as economics or per capita income, and find corellation. You can even corellate temparature data if you'd like and link it to greenhouse gases. It still doesn't prove a point.
agreed. but you're the one who tried to correlate the decrease in crime to an increase in gun ownership, all I did was point out that gun ownership - when looked at statistically in the same manner as crime rates (as a % of population) - has actually been decreasing. decreasing, by the way, at almost exactly the same rate as the crime rate.

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Old 07.10.2015, 11:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Causation and corellation are two different things. You can overlay any related statisicss, such as economics or per capita income, and find corellation. You can even corellate temparature data if you'd like and link it to greenhouse gases. It still doesn't prove a point.
Thank you for not answering the question asked. That is something usually done by people with something to hide
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