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  #501  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Thank you for not answering the question asked. That is something usually done by people with something to hide
You have to prove something exists before you can hide it. As it is, there is nothing to hide.
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  #502  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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-There is no causation between private gun ownership and crime. In fact, there is proof of deterrence. Gun laws do not prevent violent crimes.
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You have to prove something exists before you can hide it. As it is, there is nothing to hide.
Make up your mind - you either have proof or you don't. Are you a politician?
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  #503  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I must have misunderstood this thread. I thought the prevailing argument was that citizens (the goodies, in the white hats) need guns to defend themselves from the baddie criminals, who have guns. And black hats. But no, actually Americans need .22 rifles and Smith & Wessons to rise up against their government, which has fully automatic firearms, tanks, chemical weapons (probably) and nuclear bombs.
This is actually the bit where Switzerland understood the Jeffersonian militia thing better than the US. The army here is de-facto the people. So the concept of the army fighting against the people doesn't play. If the people (or a sufficiently large subset thereof) were to take their guns and march to Bern, the government would be screwed.
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  #504  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is actually the bit where Switzerland understood the Jeffersonian militia thing better than the US. The army here is de-facto the people. So the concept of the army fighting against the people doesn't play. If the people (or a sufficiently large subset thereof) were to take their guns and march to Bern, the government would be screwed.
"Hello, is that the Army?"
"Yes it is. How can we help?"
"This is the Government building in Bern, we're surrounded by the militia armed with guns demanding we all resign"
"One moment, let me put you through to the Bern Barracks"
......
"Hello, Bern Barracks how can we help?"
"This is the Government building in Bern, we're surrounded by the militia armed with guns demanding we all resign"
"I know, come to the window, ah yes I see you" <<WAVES>>
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  #505  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Make up your mind - you either have proof or you don't. Are you a politician?
Wait, the burden is on you to provide proof. I said their is no proven causation between private ownership of firearms and violent crime. My proof is you can't produce one. Your proof is to produce one.

Look. what you guys have are opinions. Fine. Keep them. But skeptics require a higher burden of proof - facts. Not correlations, facts. Without them, you have opinions. But when you try to impose opinions as facts, and try to out shout the absence of facts with opinions, it just dumbs down the conversation to a level of intelligence not worth having.

But go on, enjoy agreeing with yourselves, if that is what you are into.
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  #506  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Wait, the burden is on you to provide proof. I said their is no proven causation between private ownership of firearms and violent crime. My proof is you can't produce one. Your proof is to produce one.

Look. what you guys have are opinions. Fine. Keep them. But skeptics require a higher burden of proof - facts. Not correlations, facts. Without them, you have opinions. But when you try to impose opinions as facts, and try to out shout the absence of facts with opinions, it just dumbs down the conversation to a level of intelligence not worth having.

But go on, enjoy agreeing with yourselves, if that is what you are into.
Wikipedia starts with a simple graph for you
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  #507  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And what happens when someone or a group of people take up arms against the US government - the FBI, NSA, CIA, KFC, DEA, TSA and AAA come down on the arses in helicopter gunships and swat vans - and they have 100 snipers pointed at them.

The line is born out of the fact the government of the time wasn't "fairly" elected by the people - it is now (except a Bush administration) - so how about common sense be given a chance and gun control implemented?
I don't agree. Just because something is "so" today doesn't mean it isn't regulated by the idea so many Americans are armed. That the two aren't connected. And there is a growing number of Americans today that are conscience of the what you have just mentioned. The improved technology for example. So, it makes it even more tensioned to talk about disarming them further. Not that I am constantly believing in conspiracy theories, but, it's a true fact of the world.
And it isn't about elections pre ce. Government or the CIA, and other agencies can abuse power without anything to do with elections or not. This leaves the door open for the nuttos to also believe they are in the right, and look for a revolution, but so it goes.

What were they saying about Sam Adams and the like back in the UK, when their governing gave no real power to the colonies, and had their way? And remember, how superior the strength the British Navy and military was known for in those times against a bunch of rag tag rifle toting militia men?
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  #508  
Old 07.10.2015, 11:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Wait, the burden is on you to provide proof. I said their is no proven causation between private ownership of firearms and violent crime. My proof is you can't produce one. Your proof is to produce one.

Look. what you guys have are opinions. Fine. Keep them. But skeptics require a higher burden of proof - facts. Not correlations, facts. Without them, you have opinions. But when you try to impose opinions as facts, and try to out shout the absence of facts with opinions, it just dumbs down the conversation to a level of intelligence not worth having.

But go on, enjoy agreeing with yourselves, if that is what you are into.
here, assuming that the Harvard School of Public Health constitutes a sufficiently-reputable source for you:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...uns-and-death/

I am actually baffled as to why any intelligent person would debate the point - "gun violence" presumes the existence of a gun, and so it should seem intuitively obvious that gun ownership would be causative of gun violence. res ipsa, and all that.
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  #509  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:07
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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here, assuming that the Harvard School of Public Health constitutes a sufficiently-reputable source for you:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/fi...uns-and-death/

I am actually baffled as to why any intelligent person would debate the point - "gun violence" presumes the existence of a gun, and so it should seem intuitively obvious that gun ownership would be causative of gun violence. res ipsa, and all that.
Thats like saying you are more likely to get into a motorcycle accident if you owned a motorcycle. You can walk and still get hit by a bus.

Plainly, I don't believe prohibitting the private ownership of guns is the solution to violence. Its a knee jerk reaction to sensational reports of mass shootings. I also don't think it is worth imposing in the US. Its a personal, private liberty question for me.
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  #510  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

One thing I've noticed during my trips to America and conversations with Americans is that people tend to be scared - a lot more scared than your typical Brit or European. They're scared of the government, or they're scared of Muslims, or they're scared of black people, or they're scared of their neighbours, or they're scared of varmints, or they're scared of burglars, or they're scared of Mexicans, or they're scared of the Russians, or they're scared of paedophiles, or they're scared of bible bashers, or they're scared of public schooling, or they're scared of... well, you get the picture.

Now, it could be that Brits and Europeans just wander around in blissful ignorance of the ugly truth of the world, but I get the feeling that quite a lot of Americans allow their world view to be shaped predominantly by the emotion of fear, which surely cannot be healthy.

I can understand wanting to own a gun because you want to shoot at animals. I can understand wanting to own a gun because you like the way they're put together. But wanting to own a gun to shoot at burglars? Wanting to own a gun to keep the government in order? In any civilised country, that's just batshit crazy.

Guns are fun, and it would be a real shame to see law-abiding gun owners lose their right to blow the heads off possums just because some kids are vicious morons, but American culture is seriously messed up - guns or no guns.

What to do? There's nothing can be done. This is in the fabric of their culture, and goes right back to the first arrival of the pilgrims who were running away from the scary big boys in Europe. It's just what happens when a nation is built by runaways.
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  #511  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:21
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Thats like saying you are more likely to get into a motorcycle accident if you owned a motorcycle. You can walk and still get hit by a bus.
yes, it is exactly like saying that you are more likely to get into a motorcycle accident if you own a motorcycle. which, by the way, is precisely why we so closely regulate ownership and operation of motorcycles in America.



I understand perfectly if gun ownership is a personal liberty question for you - this is the classic Jim Jefferies defense, "$%&% it, I like guns" - but the personal liberty issue is completely distinct from the fact that the statistics clearly support a direct nexus between strict regulation of guns and a decrease in gun violence.
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  #512  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I can agree with that. Its a cultural context, a different society, and a different set of reality. I don't feel a need to own a gun in Switzerland to protect myself, and it doesn't really fit the reality here. Although I think. i know more people in Switzerland who owns guns than in the US. And I also know of many Brits who own shotguns in Britain. Yet, I don't think you can apply what works in Germany or Australia to just anywhere in the US.
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  #513  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So now you're being emotional and immature. What you have are purely sentiments, and not valid arguments.

-There is no causation between private gun ownership and crime. In fact, there is proof of deterrence. Gun laws do not prevent violent crimes.
-Chicago has some of the stringent gun laws (sic), yet has the highwt gun related crimes.
-A 15 year old terrorist just shot a man in Parratta Melbourne, where you have such successful gun laws.
-The Australian gun law was a mandatory confuscation.

You're allowed your sentiments and emotions, but it is not really for an objctive 2 way conversation. Find as many people you can to agree with you. Sing sbout it if you want. Its not going to make it any more valid.
You're hilarious. Show me the emotion in my posts. They're objective and science-based, not full of assumptions ("that would not be possible in the U.S.") and trotting out ancient clichés. Even if I were to get emotional, I can think of few better topics to express emotions about than school children being murdered by people with guns, innocent people going about their daily lives being murdered by people with guns, and people sticking their heads in the sand when confronted by the increasing problem of people being murdered by people with guns.

Perhaps it needs nearly every American to have a close relative murdered by a person with a gun to get some action on this issue. Do you really want to wait till that tipping point arrives?

In response to your odd grab bag of points:

There is no causation between private gun ownership and crime. In fact, there is proof of deterrence. Gun laws do not prevent violent crimes.

I believe we established that it is impractical and maybe even impossible to prove causation. Likewise, there is no proof of deterrence -- again, only correlation. No-one knows for sure the extent to which various factors affect gun crime. But only a congenital idiot would argue that lack of a gun has no impact on the ability to shoot a bullet at someone.

Chicago has some of the stringent gun laws, yet has the highwt (sic) gun related crimes.
Again, I believe I already pointed out that Carly Fiorina highlighted that Chicago does not enforce its gun laws. When laws are not enforced, they have very little effect. You can have the most restrictive laws on the planet, but if the consequences of breaking them are slight or non-existent, no-one will be deterred.

A 15 year old terrorist just shot a man in Parratta Melbourne (sic), where you have such successful gun laws.
Did you notice that the shooting of one man (in Parramatta, near Sydney) by someone unknown to him made front page headlines for several days? It's an extremely rare event in Australia. There is more than one mass kiling every day in the U.S. They don't even all get reported any more. A man killed his estranged wife, her boyfriend and a stranger who tried to intervene (and himself) in Florida a couple of hours after the Oregon shootings. Until the BBC publicised this, did anyone outside the immediate area hear about these killings?

I'd say yes, compared to the U.S., Australia has highly successful gun laws.

The Australian gun law was a mandatory confuscation (sic).
No, it wasn't. It was mandatory for residents of Australia to sell certain types of guns to the government. That's why it was called a "buyback". The government paid a fair price for the guns. Several exceptions and exemptions to the mandatory sale applied. You might like to inform yourself about the buyback and the stunningly successful consequences of the legislation here.

If you want to argue in a debate, get your facts straight first -- otherwise you will go down in flames. You repeatedly trot out non-factoids, meaningless and disingenuous statistics, and personal opinions dressed up as facts. You've done the same in other threads on other topics, too. It's a little like the boy who cried "Wolf!" -- the more you ignore facts in your debating style, the less attention people will pay to your claims.
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  #514  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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One thing I've noticed during my trips to America and conversations with Americans is that people tend to be scared - a lot more scared than your typical Brit or European. They're scared of the government, or they're scared of Muslims, or they're scared of black people, or they're scared of their neighbours, or they're scared of varmints, or they're scared of burglars, or they're scared of Mexicans, or they're scared of the Russians, or they're scared of paedophiles, or they're scared of bible bashers, or they're scared of public schooling, or they're scared of... well, you get the picture.
Unfortunately, I think that fear is spreading to Europe, and the UK being maybe most exposed to American culture, is leading the way.

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I can understand wanting to own a gun because you want to shoot at animals. I can understand wanting to own a gun because you like the way they're put together. But wanting to own a gun to shoot at burglars? Wanting to own a gun to keep the government in order? In any civilised country, that's just batshit crazy.
Remember Tony Martin?

But that aside, I do think certain excesses could have been avoided had the population been armed. Would the SS have been able to rip people out of their beds at 2am and march them off to the nearest cattle train? Maybe they would, seeing they would have had the greater firepower. But they would have woken the whole neighbourhood in the process and destroyed the claim that people didn't know what was going on. And honestly I think given the choice I'd rather go down with a gun in my hand and taking down as many of my enemies as possible, than to die maybe a couple of weeks or months later in decrepitude in a concentration camp.
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  #515  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

When I first came here to Switzerland, I recall just about every household I visited had a firearm. Yet there were no widespread reports of gun deaths. Care to explain that?
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  #516  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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When I first came here to Switzerland, I recall just about every household I visited had a firearm. Yet there were no widespread reports of gun deaths. Care to explain that?
Swiss news is less mad than American news.
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  #517  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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When I first came here to Switzerland, I recall just about every household I visited had a firearm. Yet there were no widespread reports of gun deaths. Care to explain that?
Partially that they're mostly army rifles and less convenient to carry around under your jacket. However also worth noting that (if you take a reasonably long-term average - CH being small can see large single year swings)Switzerland has a significantly higher murder rate than comperable countries with more strict rules - GB for example.


And probably the DB effect as well.
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  #518  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Partially that they're mostly army rifles and less convenient to carry around under your jacket. However also worth noting that (if you take a reasonably long-term average - CH being small can see large single year swings)Switzerland has a significantly higher murder rate than comperable countries with more strict rules - GB for example.
The rank and file have rifles. Officers additionally have pistols.
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  #519  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Swiss news is less mad than American news.
In Switzerland I think the attitude to guns is totally different.

Avereage Swiss guy says "this is my rifle. It's one of the things I need for my military service. I hate military service. I hate this thing and try not to think about it when I'm not actually using it for military service or obligatory practice"

Average American guy says "this is my gun, it has lots of cool features and I like to hold and caress it and take it places with me".

Which of those two is more likely to use his gun as weapon of first choice
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Old 07.10.2015, 12:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Swiss news is less mad than American news.
Not just the news. But yes, it is cultural. Its in the manner in which that culture deals with conflicts and resolution. Here, we are perfectly fine with letting the society and the state work out conflict and resolutions. It isn't the same in the US. In many ways, out there, you're on your own.
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