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  #521  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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When I first came here to Switzerland, I recall just about every household I visited had a firearm. Yet there were no widespread reports of gun deaths. Care to explain that?
Less gun deaths - maybe related to more responsible gun ownership? Or simply that your average Swiss is little less bat-shit-crazy than your average American?
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  #522  
Old 07.10.2015, 12:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Less gun deaths - maybe related to more responsible gun ownership? Or simply that your average Swiss is little less bat-shit-crazy than your average American?
And there it is, and it is not due to the rate of gun ownership.
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  #523  
Old 07.10.2015, 13:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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When I first came here to Switzerland, I recall just about every household I visited had a firearm. Yet there were no widespread reports of gun deaths. Care to explain that?
the context of gun ownership in Switzerland is completely different, since it arises principally in the context of mandatory military and/or civil service. every single Swiss friend of mine who owns a firearm says the same thing - my gun is a tool, and a tool that serves a singular purpose, to kill. their understanding of the purpose of a firearm is trained into them as part of their service to their country.

this is a little bit different than strolling into Walmart to pick up a 9mm to shoot at beer cans in the backyard.
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  #524  
Old 07.10.2015, 13:07
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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the context of gun ownership in Switzerland is completely different, .
Oh good, so now we're at least talking about context.

The US is humongous. Just about every imaginable culture in the world has representation there. It is NOT a homogenized alpine region where they have some unifying cultural history between them. People in the US don't even agree on what the underlying culture is. So what you see there is pretty a representation of the state of the world, as it is. The argument for gun control is about the same as an argument for total world disarmament. Anyone see that happening anywhere in the horizon? why isn't it happening? I think its the same question and answer.
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Old 07.10.2015, 13:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Phos, guns kill. If guns aren't present, they can't be used to kill.

There is an elephant in the room.
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  #526  
Old 07.10.2015, 13:50
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Phos, guns kill. If guns aren't present, they can't be used to kill.

There is an elephant in the room.
Guns are used to kill. Guns can also be used to prevent a killing, or other sorts of injuries. That is how it is used the majority of the time. Logic.

So the way it works in the US is you can exercise choice. You can choose to have one, or choose not to have one. Either way is fine.
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Old 07.10.2015, 13:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Switzerland has a significantly higher murder rate than comperable countries with more strict rules - GB for example.
Wrong. U.k. has a much higher murder rate than Swizterland.

U.K. approx. 9 per 1 Million capita
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-...015/rft-02.xls

CH approx. 5 per 1 Million capita
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...ment.21929.xls
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Old 07.10.2015, 14:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And honestly I think given the choice I'd rather go down with a gun in my hand and taking down as many of my enemies as possible, than to die maybe a couple of weeks or months later in decrepitude in a concentration camp.
Are we comparing today, a time of peace in the western world, with literally the worst tragedy that humanity ever witnessed? War requires gun, I get that. Peace generally doesn't... Case in point: every civilised country that believes they can live a safe life (and they do) without an armory in their houses.



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Its a personal, private liberty question for me.
Legitimate question: How is it possible to claim that a background check (if that is even done, and from what I understand that's not always the case) is enough to give someone permission to carry around with him at all times a literally deadly weapon, while professional racing drivers (for example) are not allowed to do 120 in the highway and if they are caught doing that they can be easily charged for attempted manslaughter?

How is the one a matter of personal liberty and the other not? Why isn't this liberty extended to more things in the US life?


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And there it is, and it is not due to the rate of gun ownership.
So you agree that the Americans are to blame and you still want to arm them easily, because it's a "matter of personal liberty" for the bat-shit crazy guy next door too to have a gun
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  #529  
Old 07.10.2015, 14:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Legitimate question: How is it possible to claim that a background check (if that is even done, and from what I understand that's not always the case) is enough to give someone permission to carry around with him at all times a literally deadly weapon, while professional racing drivers (for example) are not allowed to do 120 in the highway and if they are caught doing that they can be easily charged for attempted manslaughter?

How is the one a matter of personal liberty and the other not? Why isn't this liberty extended to more things in the US life?

So you agree that the Americans are to blame and you still want to arm them easily, because it's a "matter of personal liberty" for the bat-shit crazy guy next door too to have a gun
Ok, since it seems like a legitimate question, let me try to give you some legal context that might try to help your understanding. You see, you have to consider all these when exploring a topic. It doesn't really help to parrot the same thing the crowd is parroting. It doesn't benefit you anything.

We have a Bill of Rights. The 10th amendment to that bill of rights is largely responsible for many of the dynamics you are seeing. this is what it says:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What you see here is that any powers not delegated to the Federal government is reserved to the State, and any not to the State, the individual. And this is where 22 Yards and yourself fails to understand that the US is not Australia, nor other countries.

Basically, for the Federal government to instate a version of the Australian gun laws, mandatory confiscation, they would have to infringe on State and Individual rights. Well,that wouldn't be The USA at that point. Some of the inconsistencies you are seeing are in various ways states and agencies apply their regulations.

So foreigners..., ahem, ya'll.... would be perfectly fine if the US government infringed on the rights of its citizens. Well, we're not. So, too bad.
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  #530  
Old 07.10.2015, 14:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Legitimate question: How is it possible to claim that a background check (if that is even done, and from what I understand that's not always the case) is enough to give someone permission to carry around with him at all times a literally deadly weapon, while professional racing drivers (for example) are not allowed to do 120 in the highway and if they are caught doing that they can be easily charged for attempted manslaughter?

How is the one a matter of personal liberty and the other not? Why isn't this liberty extended to more things in the US life?
What does a background check say? It says: This person is up to this point in time and as good as we know is a law abiding citizen! No guarantee given.

About freedom: If I have the choice, either allowed to drink alcohol in any public places or to carry a gun in any public places, I stay with the former.
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  #531  
Old 07.10.2015, 14:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Ok, since it seems like a legitimate question, let me try to give you some legal context that might try to help your understanding. You see, you have to consider all these when exploring a topic. It doesn't really help to parrot the same thing the crowd is parroting. It doesn't benefit you anything.

We have a Bill of Rights. The 10th amendment to that bill of rights is largely responsible for many of the dynamics you are seeing. this is what it says:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What you see here is that any powers not delegated to the Federal government is reserved to the State, and any not to the State, the individual. And this is where 22 Yards and yourself fails to understand that the US is not Australia, nor other countries.

Basically, for the Federal government to instate a version of the Australian gun laws, mandatory confiscation, they would have to infringe on State and Individual rights. Well,that wouldn't be The USA at that point. Some of the inconsistencies you are seeing are in various ways states and agencies apply their regulations.

So foreigners..., ahem, ya'll.... would be perfectly fine if the US government infringed on the rights of its citizens. Well, we're not. So, too bad.
Nonsense, again. These powers of which you speak are delegated to the people last of all. The states are free to enact legislation for the good of the citizens.

So explain to us how the PATRIOT USA Act came into being. How is it that American citizens can be made to remove their shoes and submit to a search when boarding an aeroplane?

I see you're still banging on about "mandatory confiscation". You really should read the other posts in this thread.
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  #532  
Old 07.10.2015, 14:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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N
So explain to us how the PATRIOT USA Act came into being. How is it that American citizens can be made to remove their shoes and submit to a search when boarding an aeroplane?
.
The Transportation Security Administration is a federal agency. Most interstate issues are at the Federal level.

Yes, I know nonsense means it doesn't makes sense to you.

Perhaps you folks should try "Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo" for gun control?
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  #533  
Old 07.10.2015, 14:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I see you're still banging on about "mandatory confiscation". You really should read the other posts in this thread.
I think it is important to remember that when people bang on about "Right to bear arms" what they actually mean is "Right to bear arms except in a federal building".



TBH - I think it was actually a typo, and should read: the right to beer arms - meaning the right to drink in public.
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  #534  
Old 07.10.2015, 14:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So foreigners..., ahem, ya'll.... would be perfectly fine if the US government infringed on the rights of its citizens. Well, we're not. So, too bad.
No you just seem to be insanely picky when it comes to which rights of its citizens can and will be infringed.


Getting an f-inf abortion is harder than getting a gun in some states.

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  #535  
Old 07.10.2015, 14:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The Transportation Security Administration is a federal agency. Most interstate issues are at the Federal level.
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I think it is important to remember that when people bang on about "Right to bear arms" what they actually mean is "Right to bear arms except in a federal building".
There you go -- all that's needed is for a federal agency to be created which promptly bans guns. It can do that, because "most interstate issues are at the Federal level". Because that's justification, apparently.

By the way, the Supreme Court has ruled that the right conferred by the Second Amendment is not unlimited and does not prohibit regulation of guns.
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TBH - I think it was actually a typo, and should read: the right to beer arms - meaning the right to drink in public.
We've already had someone in this thread talking about the right to bare arms, which was obviously prescience on the part of Jefferson et al., who realised that T-shirts would one day replace button-up tunics.

In any case, this should highlight that laws passed more than 200 years ago don't necessarily remain relevant today, and should themselves be subject to amendment.
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Old 07.10.2015, 15:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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In any case, this should highlight that laws passed more than 200 years ago don't necessarily remain relevant today, and should themselves be subject to amendment.
Don't be daft, what is written in the Koran/Constitution* is law and should be obeyed - and all infidels destroyed.

*Delete as applicable
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  #537  
Old 07.10.2015, 15:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Alright, well let me know when you see effective gun control instituted in the US. I have to go. In the meantime, perhaps try:

nam-myo-ho-renge-kyo-nam-myo-ho-renge-kyo (x1000)
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Old 07.10.2015, 15:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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We have a Bill of Rights. The 10th amendment to that bill of rights is largely responsible for many of the dynamics you are seeing. this is what it says:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
How unique. Hmm like the Art. 3, Art. 51, and Art. 138 of the Swiss Constitution. O.k. a little bit less power for the U.S. people.

Or you may look up how the Germans came up and put their version of the TV license tax into actual law.
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Old 07.10.2015, 15:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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We have a Bill of Rights. The 10th amendment to that bill of rights is largely responsible for many of the dynamics you are seeing. this is what it says:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What you see here is that any powers not delegated to the Federal government is reserved to the State, and any not to the State, the individual. And this is where 22 Yards and yourself fails to understand that the US is not Australia, nor other countries.

Basically, for the Federal government to instate a version of the Australian gun laws, mandatory confiscation, they would have to infringe on State and Individual rights. Well,that wouldn't be The USA at that point. Some of the inconsistencies you are seeing are in various ways states and agencies apply their regulations.
fyi, the 10th Amendment reservation of rights to the states has been almost completely eliminated by a long line of Supreme Court decisions around the Commerce Clause and the 14th Amendment. if Congress wanted to pass legislation calling for the immediate confiscation of all firearms, the only thing standing in its way would be existing Supreme Court decisions around the 2nd Amendment, since those decisions provide for an individual right to bear arms.
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Old 07.10.2015, 15:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Are we comparing today, a time of peace in the western world, with literally the worst tragedy that humanity ever witnessed? War requires gun, I get that. Peace generally doesn't... Case in point: every civilised country that believes they can live a safe life (and they do) without an armory in their houses.
The 20th Century proved graphically how quickly things can change and how peace and stability can suddenly dissolve from under people's feet.

The people who would like that to happen again must be secretly thanking those who are saying it could never happen again.

Bullys don't like people who can fight back. They no doubt thank their well meaning predecessors for preparing that inability.
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