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  #601  
Old 10.10.2015, 10:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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"THOSE" who were personally there? "THEIR" take on it? The article features an interview with ONE person who was there -- who expresses obvious uncertainty in the interview.

Grasping at straws much, Phos? Perhaps you'd like to revisit just who is being emotional in this debate?
Grasping at straws for what? I don't think you're very well informed, nor have a good sense of what you are talking about in regards to the US But it isn't due to my lack of trying to clue you in on it. But suit yourself. You can stay with your fantasies.

Many in that town mobilized to protest Obama's visit, knowing he would politicize the tragedy for his own gain. Because of that, Obama cancelled any mention of gun control during his visit. This is a NY Times report of that town's reaction:
Common Response After Killings in Oregon: ‘I Want to Have a Gun’

I think you are trying to propogandize your own views, but. I should remind you that you are suppose to be a Mod. I'm being objectively factual.

And so you resort to ad hominems. But yeah, okay, Mods have emotions, and you can be emotional.
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  #602  
Old 10.10.2015, 11:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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While the term is pejorative of decisions one simply does not like, judicial activism is not the intended mode the SCOTUS is to deliberate in. They do have lots of constraints, or should, in regards to interpretations and precedents.

Anyway, I don't see the SCOTUS banning private firearms anytime soon. Do you? And even if they did, I don't see it possible for the goverment to confiscate them short of martial law.
I don't see the SCOTUS taking unilateral action to ban private firearms, but a shift in the political ideologies of the court (which is already occurring) once Scalia finally leaves is not impossible, and such a shift could result in the court's willingness to revisit its recent decisions around the 2nd Amendment. frankly, Scalia's reading of the 2nd Amendment represents the worst example of judicial activism in the 200 plus year history of the court. after all, here is the language of the Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

only an idiot, a third grader, a blind man or a political ideologue could possibly read the 2nd Amendment and not see that a well-regulated militia is a condition precedent to the right to bear arms. Scalia's reading of the 2nd Amendment completely ignores the first 13 words and 2 commas of the Amendment, though I leave it to you to decide whether he is an idiot, a third grader, a blind man or a political ideologue.

btw, when you consider the fact that gun ownership in the US is steadily and significantly declining, the winds of momentum are quite similar to what we experienced around same-sex marriage and, before that, civil rights and even women's suffrage - democracy grinds slowly and often unjustly, but in the end it always seems to arrive at the right and just conclusion. I think a proper reading of the 2nd Amendment in the course of my lifetime is certainly possible.
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  #603  
Old 10.10.2015, 11:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Perhaps the only hope of sanity creeping into the US attitudes to guns - mothers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/opinion/moms-and-guns.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=opin ion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region
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  #604  
Old 10.10.2015, 12:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

In my book, moms are the unsung heroes - they work around the clock for their families; many have outside jobs in addition to their full-time home jobs, but their efforts are still not fully recognized by our society - underpaid in their jobs, unpaid for being the family pillar - caregiver for all members of the family when necessary, while losing benefits like pension and employment continuity. This article borders on guilt-tripping moms yet again, Freudian style.

There is "Mothers Against Drunk Driving" (MADD), maybe there should be "Mothers Against Gun Killings", too. - maybe a different acronym so that it reads nicely, like in the MADD case.
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  #605  
Old 10.10.2015, 12:28
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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There is "Mothers Against Drunk Driving" (MADD), maybe there should be "Mothers Against Gun Killings", too. - maybe a different acronym so that it reads nicely, like in the MADD case.
Mothers Implementing Less Firearm Suffering?
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  #606  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Grasping at straws for what?
Grasping at straws "to propogandize your own views", I think you'd call it.

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I'm being objectively factual.


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But yeah, okay, Mods have emotions, and you can be emotional.
Perhaps this is the key to the whole issue: a certain level of EQ. If those who blindly and mindlessly continue to parrot nonsensical arguments based on a 230-year-old document and continue to ignore the human impact of their immovable stance were to develop just a little empathy and emotion, perhaps they'd finally understand the need for change.

Also, lovely touch there with the "ad hominem" claim. Again, show me where I have attacked you rather than the issue; then reread your last post addressed to me. Or look up "ad hominem" to understand what the phrase means.
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  #607  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't see the SCOTUS taking unilateral action to ban private firearms, but a shift in the political ideologies of the court (which is already occurring) once Scalia finally leaves is not impossible, and such a shift could result in the court's willingness to revisit its recent decisions around the 2nd Amendment. frankly, Scalia's reading of the 2nd Amendment represents the worst example of judicial activism in the 200 plus year history of the court. after all, here is the language of the Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

only an idiot, a third grader, a blind man or a political ideologue could possibly read the 2nd Amendment and not see that a well-regulated militia is a condition precedent to the right to bear arms. Scalia's reading of the 2nd Amendment completely ignores the first 13 words and 2 commas of the Amendment, though I leave it to you to decide whether he is an idiot, a third grader, a blind man or a political ideologue.

btw, when you consider the fact that gun ownership in the US is steadily and significantly declining, the winds of momentum are quite similar to what we experienced around same-sex marriage and, before that, civil rights and even women's suffrage - democracy grinds slowly and often unjustly, but in the end it always seems to arrive at the right and just conclusion. I think a proper reading of the 2nd Amendment in the course of my lifetime is certainly possible.
There isn't even universal agreement about the wording of the Second Amendment -- hence the scope for varying Supreme Court interpretations. The version ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State (see Wikipedia) reads:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
This makes more sense than the version passed by Congress, which grammatically is rather nonsensical. It's difficult, if not impossible to understand the intention behind the Congress version. Very poor law-making.
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  #608  
Old 10.10.2015, 13:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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There isn't even universal agreement about the wording of the Second Amendment -- hence the scope for varying Supreme Court interpretations. The version ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State (see Wikipedia) reads:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
This makes more sense than the version passed by Congress, which grammatically is rather nonsensical. It's difficult, if not impossible to understand the intention behind the Congress version. Very poor law-making.


What is the problem? Get rid of all hardliners, bureaucrats and either fix the 2nd Amendment's sentence or split it to two, which will read ...
"A well regulated militia being (is) necessary to the security of a free state. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be infringed."


Then those gun owners who can read in the US or else in process of learning, will understand it better.


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Old 10.10.2015, 13:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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What is the problem? Get rid of all hardliners, bureaucrats and fix the 2nd Amendment's sentence which will read ...
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be infringed.
Yes, because that makes so much more sense.
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  #610  
Old 10.10.2015, 20:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

only an idiot, a third grader, a blind man or a political ideologue could possibly read the 2nd Amendment and not see that a well-regulated militia is a condition precedent to the right to bear arms. Scalia's reading of the 2nd Amendment completely ignores the first 13 words and 2 commas of the Amendment, though I leave it to you to decide whether he is an idiot, a third grader, a blind man or a political ideologue.
I don't believe it is prefaced on a milita. I believe it is prefaced on nature.

The right to bear arms is basically the right to self-preservation and the right to self-defense.

I believe the historical context of the law can be traced back to Locke, and maybe even back to Aristotle.

I believe this is true by nature. Every human being has the right to defend themself whether a law exists in the country they live in or not. This is common sense and even instinctual.
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  #611  
Old 10.10.2015, 21:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Again another incident proves that the majority of Americans are pretty stupid.
And another.

I'm not sure why this thread is still in debate it is simple, the majority of Americans are stupid.
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  #612  
Old 10.10.2015, 21:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't believe it is prefaced on a milita. I believe it is prefaced on nature.

The right to bear arms is basically the right to self-preservation and the right to self-defense.

I believe the historical context of the law can be traced back to Locke, and maybe even back to Aristotle.

I believe this is true by nature. Every human being has the right to defend themself whether a law exists in the country they live in or not. This is common sense and even instinctual.

It is always good to have beliefs; boring fact is the strict interpretation of laws is based on the exact words and punctuation used!
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  #613  
Old 10.10.2015, 21:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And another.

I'm not sure why this thread is still in debate it is simple, the majority of Americans are stupid.
Interestingly simple wisdom. Attributing what a handful of idiots do to 319 million other people is much simpler for comprehending complex situations for some minds, maybe. What do you call that technique of thinking?
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  #614  
Old 10.10.2015, 21:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It is always good to have beliefs; boring fact is the strict interpretation of laws is based on the exact words and punctuation used!
That is as basic as it gets without interpretation or complexities: Does a person have a right to self-defense and self-preservation?

If you say No, I'd say you are inhumane. Furthermore, laws support it.
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  #615  
Old 10.10.2015, 21:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

This is what John Locke said on the subject. Certainly he was way ahead of his time . I'm sure that he would have been a fervent member of the NRA had he lived now. On the other hand this point of view is in contradiction with all of the world's legal systems, even that of God blessed America, AFAIK...

"This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any farther than by the use of force, so to get him in his power as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force, where he has no right to get me into his power, let his pretence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose that he who would take away my liberty would not, when he had me in his power, take away everything else. And, therefore, it is lawful for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a state of war with me -- i.e., kill him if I can; for to that hazard does he justly expose himself whoever introduces a state of war, and is aggressor in it"
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Old 10.10.2015, 21:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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That is as basic as it gets without interpretation or complexities: Does a person have a right to self-defense and self-preservation?

If you say No, I'd say you are inhumane.
Well, that's Christian belief out the window, then.
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Old 10.10.2015, 21:40
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Well, that's Christian belief out the window, then.
Not at all. The Christian belief was not the negation of the right to self-defense. It was the freedom to choose not to exercise it even though you have the right.

There may be some non-violent philosophies, such as Jainism, that prohibits it. But even there, I would assume it was a choice to make.
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Old 11.10.2015, 02:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And another.

I'm not sure why this thread is still in debate it is simple, the majority of Americans are stupid.
So to be clear, your contribution to this thread is your premise that the majority of Americans are stupid?

I'm pretty thick myself, and you only quoted yourself once, so I just want to make sure I understand the nuance of your post.

BTW, is it sycophantic ingratiation or envy that drives you?

There can be only One.

Deal.
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Old 11.10.2015, 10:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Interestingly simple wisdom. Attributing what a handful of idiots do to 319 million other people is much simpler for comprehending complex situations for some minds, maybe. What do you call that technique of thinking?
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So to be clear, your contribution to this thread is your premise that the majority of Americans are stupid?

I'm pretty thick myself, and you only quoted yourself once, so I just want to make sure I understand the nuance of your post.

BTW, is it sycophantic ingratiation or envy that drives you?

There can be only One.

Deal.
Maybe if the majority of that 319m stood up in the 'democratic land of the free' and said enough is enough, screw history, today is today and too many of our kids are being killed needlessly by other kids, then maybe those kids would not be getting killed needlessly.

Oh and if you read my posts again you will see that in this instance quoting my own previous post was in fact correct.
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Old 11.10.2015, 11:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Maybe if the majority of that 319m stood up in the 'democratic land of the free' and said enough is enough, screw history, today is today and too many of our kids are being killed needlessly by other kids, then maybe those kids would not be getting killed needlessly.

Oh and if you read my posts again you will see that in this instance quoting my own previous post was in fact correct.
The right to self-defense is not granted by history nor government, but by natural law. What you are talking about "screwing" here is their own inalienable rights. So because a handful lunatics deprived innocent people of their right to live, you are proposing to deprive the rights of 319 million people.

I would say your perspective is grossly malformed. Although I would grant to you all that these sentiments on the surface seem to be of the utmost noble and good intentions, its very naive and ignorant. Its like the aphormism, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Yea, so nice wishful thinking, very sentimental, maybe heartwarming, thanks, but most of us live on a different level of reality.
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