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  #621  
Old 11.10.2015, 11:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The right to self-defense is not granted by history nor government, but by natural law. What you are talking about "screwing" here is their own inalienable rights. So because a handful lunatics deprived innocent people of their right to live, you are proposing to deprive the rights of 319 million people.

I would say your perspective is grossly malformed. Although I would grant to you all that these sentiments on the surface seem to be of the utmost noble and good intentions, its very naive and ignorant. Its like the aphormism, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Yea, so nice wishful thinking, very sentimental, maybe heartwarming, thanks, but most of us live on a different level of reality.
Tell that to the kids who are dead.
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  #622  
Old 11.10.2015, 11:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Maybe if the majority of that 319m stood up in the 'democratic land of the free' and said enough is enough, screw history, today is today and too many of our kids are being killed needlessly by other kids, then maybe those kids would not be getting killed needlessly.
the majority of that 319m is already speaking with their actions, since fewer than 1 in 3 Americans actually own a gun and a gun is present is fewer than 1 in 3 American households. democracy in America is no different than democracy in Switzerland or just about anywhere else in the western world, it moves very, very slowly (and even more slowly in America, since there is effectively no referendum process other than at a purely local level and amendment of the Constitution takes several years).
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  #623  
Old 11.10.2015, 11:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Tell that to the kids who are dead.
Those kids didn't die because the US respects people's inalienable rights. They died because some evil person deprived them of it. Deprivation of inalienable rights is the problem here, not the solution.
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  #624  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The right to self-defense is not granted by history nor government, but by natural law.
Let's pretend this unwritten, unratified "natural law" of which you speak exists and holds some sway. Where does it say that citizens must arm themselves with firearms to defend themselves? Why not with clubs, mace spray or other means that are actually defensive, rather than having the capacity to offensively wipe out hundreds of people in one go?

Why do you consider it reasonable for people to arm themselves with semi-automatic firearms, but not with fragmenting grenades or machine guns? If you believe that everyone should be armed for self-defence, surely the ideal solution is to plant landmines around every home? They're deployed only in case of incursion so by definition are purely defensive.
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  #625  
Old 11.10.2015, 12:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

No need to pretend. It is written and ratified in the second sentence of the US Constitution:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

It doesn't specify any particular tools. I suppose if a tank is what was available at the time needed, so be it. Nothing says what must or must not be used. I suppose it is proportionate to what one needs to be effectively defended against at the time.
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  #626  
Old 11.10.2015, 13:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No need to pretend. It is written and ratified in the second sentence of the US Constitution:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

It doesn't specify any particular tools. I suppose if a tank is what was available at the time needed, so be it. Nothing says what must or must not be used. I suppose it is proportionate to what one needs to be effectively defended against at the time.


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  #627  
Old 11.10.2015, 13:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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That is funny, except the Bill of Rights is not about inalienable rights and God. In fact, it is about alienable rights governments can or cannot take from its people. Its a contract between governments and its population.

Wait a second, didn't you once say you were a lawyer?
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  #628  
Old 11.10.2015, 13:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No need to pretend. It is written and ratified in the second sentence of the US Constitution:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

It doesn't specify any particular tools. I suppose if a tank is what was available at the time needed, so be it. Nothing says what must or must not be used. I suppose it is proportionate to what one needs to be effectively defended against at the time.
Phos, unfortunately you have no idea what you're talking about. You are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a cavernous hole.

That catchy line about self-evident truths is from the U.S. Declaration of Independence. Not from the U.S. Constitution. The two are different documents. One is the basis of law in the United States, the other is not. Unfortunately for you, the document written by aggrieved colonials who wanted to break free and declare their independence from Great Britain is not the one with legal import.

So it remains that there is no enshrined right to self-defence in the United States under "natural law", and certainly not to self-defence with weapons of mass destruction.
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  #629  
Old 11.10.2015, 13:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Phos, unfortunately you have no idea what you're talking about. You are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a cavernous hole.

That catchy line about self-evident truths is from the U.S. Declaration of Independence. Not from the U.S. Constitution. The two are different documents. One is the basis of law in the United States, the other is not. Unfortunately for you, the document written by aggrieved colonials who wanted to break free and declare their independence from Great Britain is not the one with legal import.

So it remains that there is no enshrined right to self-defence in the United States under "natural law", and certainly not to self-defence with weapons of mass destruction.
You can stay in the dark about it. In the meantime, it will be continued to be practiced, perhaps mysteriously and inexplicably for you.
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  #630  
Old 11.10.2015, 14:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Wait a second, didn't you once say you were a lawyer?
the first thing every good lawyer learns during the first week of law school...

...is that good judges decide the result they want and then reason back from there.

our common law legal system only ensures that there is no such thing as an "inalienable right", anybody who believes otherwise is simply being naive.
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  #631  
Old 11.10.2015, 14:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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the first thing every good lawyer learns during the first week of law school...

...is that good judges decide the result they want and then reason back from there.

our common law legal system only ensures that there is no such thing as an "inalienable right", anybody who believes otherwise is simply being naive.
haha, inalienable rights are by definition rights not granted by government to its people. It is not something one waits for government to give you, its one that people claim and take. these are non-negotiable no matter what Governments say, and yes, they do exist.
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  #632  
Old 11.10.2015, 14:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

@Crazygringo: Just to be clear, do you believe people have a right to self-defense? No situational response please, just a basic Yes or No.
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  #633  
Old 11.10.2015, 15:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You can stay in the dark about it. In the meantime, it will be continued to be practiced, perhaps mysteriously and inexplicably for you.
OK, so no explanation of the nonsense you wrote? That's all right, in your position I wouldn't be able to come up with any meaningful comeback, either.
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  #634  
Old 11.10.2015, 15:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Explanation missing, or you fail to grasp it? Self-defense laws exists and are applied, and many court decisions cite it in reviewing cases. It is a common defense in murder cases. Oh but, it doesn't exist? <-Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles emoticon

You guys are laughable. You're barking up the wrong tree in advocating gun ownership laws. Sure, great sentiment. But you don't have a very good winning hand with legal arguments.

I think you might find more success in advocating a gun free lifestyle outside of legalities. Every attempt to discuss gun ownership through coercion fails. It may be a more clever approach to incentivize people to relinquish or register their guns properly.
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  #635  
Old 11.10.2015, 16:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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@Crazygringo: Just to be clear, do you believe people have a right to self-defense? No situational response please, just a basic Yes or No.
the right to self defense is actually the only inalienable right that a human being actually has, at least to the extent that the human being is capable of defending themselves.

the notion of any other inalienable or natural rights is a fiction, and is frankly little more than a wimpified variation on a theme of anarchy. the only "rights" an individual has are those granted that individual by whatever social contract they have entered into, either voluntarily (by taking residence in a community or accepting citizenship) or involuntarily (by being born into a community). and this is where our founding fathers made 2 absolutely fatal errors when they wrote the Constitution and our other charter documents - first, they assumed that giving federal judges a lifetime appointment would render those judges immune to the vagaries and pressures of politics; and, second, they opted for a common law system of justice, which permits the social contract to be amended outside of the democratic process by judges whom have not been elected by the people.

now, back to the issue of self defense - any civilized community ensures that its right to self defense is proportionate to the threat, because one person's right to self defense should never unduly rob another person of their right to life and liberty. and any civilized community would not permit theft of property, perceived threat of physical harm that is nowhere near imminent, or threat of injured pride but not person, for example, to be punishable by death. in this regard, our American community has become unquestionably, and unequivocally, uncivilized.
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  #636  
Old 11.10.2015, 17:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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the right to self defense is actually the only inalienable right that a human being actually has, at least to the extent that the human being is capable of defending themselves.

the notion of any other inalienable or natural rights is a fiction, and is frankly little more than a wimpified variation on a theme of anarchy. the only "rights" an individual has are those granted that individual by whatever social contract they have entered into, either voluntarily (by taking residence in a community or accepting citizenship) or involuntarily (by being born into a community). and this is where our founding fathers made 2 absolutely fatal errors when they wrote the Constitution and our other charter documents - first, they assumed that giving federal judges a lifetime appointment would render those judges immune to the vagaries and pressures of politics; and, second, they opted for a common law system of justice, which permits the social contract to be amended outside of the democratic process by judges whom have not been elected by the people.

now, back to the issue of self defense - any civilized community ensures that its right to self defense is proportionate to the threat, because one person's right to self defense should never unduly rob another person of their right to life and liberty. and any civilized community would not permit theft of property, perceived threat of physical harm that is nowhere near imminent, or threat of injured pride but not person, for example, to be punishable by death. in this regard, our American community has become unquestionably, and unequivocally, uncivilized.
Call it whatever for whatever syncopated effect. As you acknowledge there, shootings do occur, and is factual reality. In such an environment, it is even more a justification for the ownership of firearms as an appropriate measure for self defense. Maybe not in dreamland, but it is in the US.

Inalienable Rights do not need to be spelled out to you by your government, as it is not given to you by them. You just claim it and exercise. Some examples are:
-The right to an opinion
-The right to practice a religion
-The right to pursue liberty and happiness
-The right to own property

I can see how some cultures have historically relinquished such rights to some ruling power on earth, and look to that to determine what they can and cannot do. Its the inverse in the US. The US was all about declaring independence from such tyranical power, and proclaiming the precedence of inalienable rights over tyranical rights. The Constitution is the architecture for proceeding forward, the. Bill of Rights is the limits at which government can impede on it, and the rest are exercise of self-government apart from the government.
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Last edited by Phos; 11.10.2015 at 17:56.
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  #637  
Old 11.10.2015, 18:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )




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  #638  
Old 11.10.2015, 18:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

That. Exactly that.
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  #639  
Old 11.10.2015, 18:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

and how do you discuss or solve problems with people like that:

https://youtu.be/TFhcc0Wykvc

PHOS perhaps it is time to head back to claim your rights there- as your views certainly do not make sense from this end, sorry. I am exercising my right to an opinion here btw.

Right to own property? Do the poor in the USA have the right to own property, wow, I am amazed. Well, they do have the 'right' but what is the point!

Last edited by Odile; 11.10.2015 at 19:12.
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  #640  
Old 11.10.2015, 19:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Its not a matter of views Odile. Its the difference between wishful thinking and factual reality.

Not sure this conversation is in your league.
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