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  #641  
Old 11.10.2015, 19:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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well, if you believe that- I rest my case. Did you watch the video posted by crazygringo- it explains the relativity of it all very well. I really would not like to be in the same league as you, so that's ok, you condescending **** .
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  #642  
Old 11.10.2015, 19:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

here it is again, in case you missed it
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  #643  
Old 11.10.2015, 19:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Or maybe, just maybe, you all are not meditating and chanting your delusions into reality hard enough.

George Carlin? Hahaha. Play John Lennon's Imagine as well, close your eyes, and take a bath or something.
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  #644  
Old 11.10.2015, 19:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

perhaps, and thank Dawg, my reality is very different to yours- pheeew- and so is that of most Western Europeans - as said, you are defo the wrong place at the wrong time, and in the wrong league.
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  #645  
Old 11.10.2015, 19:22
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

bu... bu...but.... my sense of well being, personal level of prosperity and purpose here would big to differ. I think again you are confusing wishful thinking with objective reality. But I don't know if you will ever understand the difference, so I will pass on your invitation to converse.

Last edited by Phos; 11.10.2015 at 19:34.
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  #646  
Old 11.10.2015, 20:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I can see how some cultures have historically relinquished such rights to some ruling power on earth, and look to that to determine what they can and cannot do. Its the inverse in the US. The US was all about declaring independence from such tyranical power, and proclaiming the precedence of inalienable rights over tyranical rights. The Constitution is the architecture for proceeding forward, the. Bill of Rights is the limits at which government can impede on it, and the rest are exercise of self-government apart from the government.
I don't think it would be worth either of our time for me to try to explain to you the absurdity of suggesting that "rights" that did not exist for the first several tens of thousands of years of man's existence on earth are somehow "inalienable", but it is certainly worth picking apart what you've written above:

1. every single one of the "inalienable rights" you highlighted has been relinquished, in one form or another, to either the US or a state or municipal government. for example, there are some opinions that you are not free to express in public. your right to own property is also subject to a litany of restrictions on use or disposition, not to mention the taxes you have to pay on the property you own. the notion that somehow Americans are "free to do pretty whatever the &$%= they want" is a recent, and very dangerous, fiction.

2. yes, the founders wrote some nifty stuff about rights and independence, but the reality is that the founders were just a bunch of white, middle-aged Brits who were tired of paying taxes to the King. ask the blacks about "independence", or ask the women who were not allowed to vote about their "inalienable rights". ask the homosexuals who were not allowed to marry. the list goes on and on. the US was set-up as a representative system of government for a reason, and it was not to protect the "inalienable rights" of the average citizen.

3. the Constitution is not an "architecture", it is a contract between the American government and its citizens. and, unfortunately, it is a contract that was breached immediately by its own authors, a contract remarkably few Americans actually understand, and a contract that is subject to the whim and fancy of a very small group of politicians and economic elite.

you've obviously had much more of the Kool-Aid about America than I have, but you really need to recognize that the "right to bear arms" that you seem to think exists outside of military service is a recent fiction that only burst into existence since 2000. and it exists only because the SCOTUS made it up, the same as it has made up lots of other stuff since Marbury v Madison.
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  #647  
Old 11.10.2015, 20:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Alright. We'll leave it at that, beyond propaganda and what is said, and simply observe which rights are exercised and which are not. And as you will see in the present state, and future the come, that the rights I described are truly exercised, and not relinquished as imaginary rights as you describe. Check back in a week, month, year and decades later, and you will find that it has not changed. Reality is proof enough.
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  #648  
Old 11.10.2015, 20:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

no, stupidity is actually. A society that refuses to change and adapt- is doomed- because of stupidity...

Last edited by Odile; 11.10.2015 at 20:44.
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  #649  
Old 11.10.2015, 20:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And as you will see in the present state, and future the come, that the rights I described are truly exercised, and not relinquished as imaginary rights as you describe. Check back in a week, month, year and decades later, and you will find that it has not changed. Reality is proof enough.
but you've completely missed the point. just take what you've described as freedom of opinion. despite what the First Amendment says, your right of expression can be limited by your government in just about any manner it wants, so long as that limitation is subjectively considered to be reasonable. in other words, your freedom of opinion, which you think is somehow "inalienable", has not only changed in the course of the last several decades, it has been diminished. and all without your vote, it took nothing more than the imagination of a couple of judges.
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  #650  
Old 11.10.2015, 20:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Phos, I'm amused that somebody as linguistically challenged and bereft of even basic knowledge of the facts can be so condescending. Once again you demonstrate that you just don't have a clue.

First, you were unaware that the US Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are two separate documents with very different legal impacts.

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The Constitution is the architecture for proceeding forward, the. Bill of Rights is the limits at which government can impede on it, and the rest are exercise of self-government apart from the government.
Phos, the Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution, not a statement of "the limits at which government can impede on it", whatever that is supposed to mean. The Bill of Rights is a collective name for the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution.

I'm sure you'll make some juvenile dismissive comment -- the sure sign of someone with no comeback in a debate and no plausible arguments -- but I strongly suggest that you take a little time to read up on this subject, then listen carefully and rationally to the arguments that others make against your position to determine whether your view really is the best fit to the situation. Otherwise, it's just you sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la la la la la..."
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  #651  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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OK, I'd forgotten about that.

But just suppose there had been a civil war as you suggest, would there not then have been army people of all ranks and seniorities on both sides along with their training, expertes and equipment? This is a different situation to the usual type of civil war where a well equipped army gets to fight an ad hoc militia armed with pitchforks and scythes?
In one word, no.

Though both sides then might have had firearms you can't fight a war on 20 bullets (not sure soldiers got that many back then, it may even have been just 6 as that's what a single magazine held) - the ammunition depots and factories were and are government controlled. Plus, rifles aren't that effective against machine guns. You need leaders (officers) who know what they're doing. You need to be able communicate to coordinate, the means of which were also government controlled. Etc.

Up until the invasion by Napoleon in 1798/99 the sovereign parts of Switzerland consisted of what's called today the "13 Alte Orte", (take note that it's "Orte", locations or cities, as opposed to Kantone). The remainder was either owned and ruled over by a single city (e.g. Kt VD by the city of Bern, which of course also ruled over the Kt Bern) or jointly ruled over (TG, AG, SO, TI). These areas are called "Untertanengebiete" today, the inhabitants of which were little more than slaves. Other parts were ruled over by the catholic church (e.g. Kt SG owned by the monastery in St.Gallen, called "Fürst-Abtei" until 1805), while yet others were merely affiliated (Grisons, Geneva, Mulhouse, etc).

It was also Napoleon who officially abolished nobility during the "Helvetik", though some families managed to keep many of their priveleges up until the 20th century, perhaps even until today. For instance, look up "Escher vom Glas", "regimentsfähig", or take a look at the list of commanders of the Swiss Guard at the Vatican, minding that the driving man behind the Löwendenkmal was also from the Pfyffer von Altishofen family/dynasty, he had been officer in the french king's guard during/until the French Revolution.

These patterns must still have been at least partially present a hundred years ago as some were still present when I served 20-30 years ago, when for instance having the Matura was virtually synonymous with duty to serve as at least corporal. Before WW2 higher education was very difficult to access for simple worker family and peasant offspring, so this differentiation probably was even stronger back then. It was still general practice when I served to place men from one region with roughly the same upbringing in the same unit, so you got a unit of less-educated Ostschweizer infantry, or of well educated Romands artillery, etc.

The units that shot during the Generalstreik are said to have been formed by farmers, confirming that pattern mentioned above. So what you probably would have gotten back then in case of a civil war is revolting factory workers from the cities against units from rural areas from a different part of the country - for instance "reformierte" (evangelical?) industrial workers from Zürich fighting rural troops from the catholic central Kantons. Essentially all conflicts within Switzerland over the last 3-4 centuries can be grouped by that pattern, city vs country and/or catholics vs Reformierte.

Heck, despite having more than 20% votes in the Federal Parliament in all votes after 1919, and even being the strongest party after the 1931 the Social Democratic Party (SPS in german) wasn't in the Bundesrat. It was only during WW2, when a population united against Nazi Germany was deemed of utmost necessity, that they got their first Bundesrat (a development which eventually led to the coveted "Zauberformel" about ten years later).

But there's a very high chance that such a revolt wouldn't have been too bloody, Switzerland has a history of internal fights that took relatively few lives. It's also not the only time the army shot and killed swiss protesters during the last hundred years. Interestingly enough both times the dead were from the political left.

Historically Switzerland was anything but a country of united brothers, or of equals. Perhaps this opens a new perspective on other topics such as Verdingkinder, Kinder der Landstrasse, etc.
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  #652  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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but you've completely missed the point. just take what you've described as freedom of opinion. despite what the First Amendment says, your right of expression can be limited by your government in just about any manner it wants, so long as that limitation is subjectively considered to be reasonable. in other words, your freedom of opinion, which you think is somehow "inalienable", has not only changed in the course of the last several decades, it has been diminished. and all without your vote, it took nothing more than the imagination of a couple of judges.
I think you're missing the point as well. For example, the inalienable right to property does not mean you can point to anything and state you own it. you still have to truly gain ownership; by trade, purchase, gift or what have you. You have the right to own. Now, as for what it is, it could be subject to circumstances. There are laws prohibitting the ownership of certain things. The right to ownership of private property remains. Same with other rights.


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Phos, I'm amused that somebody as linguistically challenged and bereft of even basic knowledge of the facts can be so condescending. Once again you demonstrate that you just don't have a clue.

First, you were unaware that the US Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are two separate documents with very different legal impacts.

Then:

Phos, the Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution, not a statement of "the limits at which government can impede on it", whatever that is supposed to mean. The Bill of Rights is a collective name for the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution.

I'm sure you'll make some juvenile dismissive comment -- the sure sign of someone with no comeback in a debate and no plausible arguments -- but I strongly suggest that you take a little time to read up on this subject, then listen carefully and rationally to the arguments that others make against your position to determine whether your view really is the best fit to the situation. Otherwise, it's just you sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la la la la la..."
What, did you find google? . Those documents describe the why, what and how of the country.

Let me just simply get you back on track here... too many digressions and I will not even bother to address them. Leaving us to where we are, and where we will remain. Here:

You are allowed to own firearms in the US. No amount of whining or wishful thinking addresses that. Your talk of gun control is baseless and has no grounds in reality. If you still aren't sure about that, check into it today and in the future.

I understand you don't like gun violence. Well neither do I. But trying to delude yourself with some alternate reality is not going to change that reality. You're only conning yourselves.
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  #653  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

If that is so important to you, why on earth live here?

Every country has the right to change its constitution in a democratic way- one day the balance will tip- So are you really saying that civil war will automatically ensue?
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  #654  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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If that is so important to you, why on earth live here?
What is important to me, telling the truth? I think you folks some kind mental block that keep you from differentiating between the reality of things as they are in the present, and how you would like them to be. Two very different thing, no? Need some coffee?
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  #655  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Got a cup of roiibosch thanks. I am living in the reality I love, here and in the UK. Because of this I'd find it very difficult to live in the USA, possibly impossible actually. I've visited many times, from Cape Coad to Virginia and all over AZ, Utah and Colorado- and California - but I'd never ever choose to live there, ever.

Hence my question. Why live here if the right to bear arms is so paramount to you? So Civil War or not if the balance tips, as it will soon, as people are getting to sickened by so many gun deaths, and come to realise guns do NOT keep them safe. What is the difference - Hijab or gun- give me a hijab anyday.
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  #656  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I think you're missing the point as well. For example, the inalienable right to property does not mean you can point to anything and state you own it. you still have to truly gain ownership; by trade, purchase, gift or what have you. You have the right to own. Now, as for what it is, it could be subject to circumstances. There are laws prohibitting the ownership of certain things. The right to ownership of private property remains. Same with other rights.

[...]

You are allowed to own firearms in the US.
In the same way there are laws limiting the right to property, there could be laws to limit the right to own a gun.


Dude, it doesn't matter what the f@k whatever piece of paper says, no matter who wrote it. It used to allow slavery, and today its writing is again selectively listened to, depending on the matter and who's reading it.


The US needs consistency.

If you're going to not control gun ownership, let a woman do whatever the f@k she wants with her body and her life (as an example).
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  #657  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Hence my question. Why live here if the right to bear arms is so paramount to you? So Civil War or not if the balance tips, as it will soon, as people are getting to sickened by so many gun deaths, and come to realise guns do NOT keep them safe. What is the difference - Hijab or gun- give me a hijab anyday.
But what makes you think it is paramount to me? I don't think you are reading the conversation correctly. I've only said it is perfectly legal to own one, and gun control laws would have no effect on mass shootings. Any gun control law would be nearly impossible to pass. Even if it did, would not be implementable. It is not going to happen.
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  #658  
Old 11.10.2015, 21:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Yeah, okay, maybe when there are more effective laser beams and drones, rendering guns archaic and useless, then yeah, it might pass.
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  #659  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Again, what would happen if the balance tips- and there is a clear majority demanding change? No Constitution if written in stone forever- as said above, it die allow slavery- So is another civil war required- or would democracy prevail?
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  #660  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

You want to play prognosticating games now? I think you have too much trouble with very simple factual concepts to engage in that one that gets theoretical.
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