Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #661  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:05
Dougal's Breakfast's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 16,555
Groaned at 1,063 Times in 822 Posts
Thanked 44,086 Times in 13,632 Posts
Dougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Hang on... the second amendment says "arms", not "firearms".

What's stopping the US government from saying "right, that's it: no more guns for you lot. You can carry bows and arrows and be happy with it"?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Dougal's Breakfast for this useful post:
  #662  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,038
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,990 Times in 10,889 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

don't be daft and condescending again- it won't work. A simple question really- just give me your honest answer. So, democracy or civil war- when (and it will) the balance tips.

Pea shooters would be fun, with marshmallows.
Reply With Quote
  #663  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:08
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
What's stopping the US government from saying "right, that's it: no more guns for you lot. You can carry bows and arrows and be happy with it"?
At the moment, the law. But say they were to pass the law. Some might turn it in. Many others will not. So you will still have a LOT of guns out there ALL in the hands of criminals at that point.
Reply With Quote
  #664  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:14
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,038
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,990 Times in 10,889 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

So the government cannot ban handguns, but it can ban other weapons—like, say, an assault rifle—or so it appears. The full meaning of the court’s Heller opinion is still up for grabs. But it is clear that the scope of the Second Amendment will be determined as much by politics as by the law. The courts will respond to public pressure—as they did by moving to the right on gun control in the last thirty years. And if legislators, responding to their constituents, sense a mandate for new restrictions on guns, the courts will find a way to uphold them. The battle over gun control is not just one of individual votes in Congress, but of a continuing clash of ideas, backed by political power. In other words, the law of the Second Amendment is not settled; no law, not even the Constitution, ever is.
Reply With Quote
  #665  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:15
Dougal's Breakfast's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ostschweiz
Posts: 16,555
Groaned at 1,063 Times in 822 Posts
Thanked 44,086 Times in 13,632 Posts
Dougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond reputeDougal's Breakfast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
At the moment, the law. But say they were to pass the law. Some might turn it in. Many others will not. So you will still have a LOT of guns out there ALL in the hands of criminals at that point.
One could make the same argument about any prohibitive law. That never stopped them before.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Dougal's Breakfast for this useful post:
  #666  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:15
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

They are called Amendments for a reason Odile.
Reply With Quote
  #667  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,038
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,990 Times in 10,889 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Indeed, because they are not God given, or set in stone- and can be ...

amended
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #668  
Old 11.10.2015, 22:19
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
One could make the same argument about any prohibitive law. That never stopped them before.
But this one ties in a LOT of other legal issues in relation to the whole structure of the country; e.g, self defense, ownership, the role of the government, etc. The reasons for the absence of a prohibition speaks for itself. Obama and Clinton will pay lip service to voters who would like it banned, and will make useless and symbolic gestures to move in that direction. They want those votes. But they will not be going after it. Its because they can't.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phos for this useful post:
  #669  
Old 12.10.2015, 00:10
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,975 Times in 5,331 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
But what makes you think it is paramount to me? I don't think you are reading the conversation correctly. I've only said it is perfectly legal to own one, and gun control laws would have no effect on mass shootings. Any gun control law would be nearly impossible to pass. Even if it did, would not be implementable. It is not going to happen.
Now you really are acting like an idiot with his fingers in his ears singing "la la la la la".

Gun control laws in Australia had a massive effect on mass shootings -- it stopped them stone dead. Other countries have reported similar findings. You cannot say that "gun control laws would have no effect on mass shootings". You cannot say that "any gun control law would be nearly impossible to pass". You simply don't know.

"I don't want gun control legislation to pass" is not the same as "gun control legislation would not pass".

You still don't get the point, that you don't need to remove every single firearm from America to make an appreciable improvement to the gun death rate. You also haven't take in anything that others have said on this thread. You're just parroting the same tired old unfounded lines, even after your position has been proven baseless.

And as for Google, you should try it some time. You might learn a few things about your own country and its laws that might enable you to argue cogently and convincingly, instead of like an 8-year-old who insists that he's right just because he says so.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #670  
Old 12.10.2015, 02:30
VFR on top's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Basel
Posts: 903
Groaned at 28 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 1,955 Times in 736 Posts
VFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond reputeVFR on top has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Got a cup of roiibosch thanks. I am living in the reality I love, here and in the UK. Because of this I'd find it very difficult to live in the USA, possibly impossible actually. I've visited many times, from Cape Coad to Virginia and all over AZ, Utah and Colorado- and California - but I'd never ever choose to live there, ever.

Hence my question. Why live here if the right to bear arms is so paramount to you? So Civil War or not if the balance tips, as it will soon, as people are getting to sickened by so many gun deaths, and come to realise guns do NOT keep them safe. What is the difference - Hijab or gun- give me a hijab anyday.
Conversely.
Why do you (and the many others on this forum who seemingly and vociferously detest America) care so much about this internal problem? You are not a US Citizen, you don't live in the US and these laws and issues have absolutely no impact on your daily life here in CH. So why the obsession?
I mean Christ! This weekend, someone tied circumcision and gun ownership together, with the latter proposed as compensating for the loss of a foreskin.
The reality is NO ONE in the US gives a sh:t about what Europeans think about US gun ownership, and in all seriousness, why should they? Really. WHY SHOULD THEY?
It is no different than if I were to bang on day in and day out about how stupid right hand driving is and that any person who lives in such a country is a complete moron.
Stop pretending you care about the poor, culturally ignorant, geographically challenged, crime ridden violent circumcised gun nuts or their victims. It seems a little disingenuous.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank VFR on top for this useful post:
  #671  
Old 12.10.2015, 03:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,841
Groaned at 56 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 2,712 Times in 1,485 Posts
rainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond reputerainer_d has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

It's not the 300 million guns that really concern us. Or the couple of idiots that shoot each others heads off every day (together with a few innocents).
It's what's gonna happen with the 5113 nuclear warheads once what's left of a civil society there breaks down and all hell breaks loose....
Reply With Quote
  #672  
Old 12.10.2015, 09:02
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,975 Times in 5,331 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Conversely.
Why do you (and the many others on this forum who seemingly and vociferously detest America) care so much about this internal problem? You are not a US Citizen, you don't live in the US and these laws and issues have absolutely no impact on your daily life here in CH. So why the obsession?
I mean Christ! This weekend, someone tied circumcision and gun ownership together, with the latter proposed as compensating for the loss of a foreskin.
The reality is NO ONE in the US gives a sh:t about what Europeans think about US gun ownership, and in all seriousness, why should they? Really. WHY SHOULD THEY?
It is no different than if I were to bang on day in and day out about how stupid right hand driving is and that any person who lives in such a country is a complete moron.
Stop pretending you care about the poor, culturally ignorant, geographically challenged, crime ridden violent circumcised gun nuts or their victims. It seems a little disingenuous.
Just wondering, do you care when 1,000 people lose their lives in a Hajj stampede? Or when tens of thousands die in a tsunami? How about the reports of refugees from Syria drowning en route to Europe? Do those deaths all leave you cold?

Some people care about humanity, others don't.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank 22 yards for this useful post:
  #673  
Old 12.10.2015, 09:16
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,408
Groaned at 442 Times in 346 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Conversely.
Why do you (and the many others on this forum who seemingly and vociferously detest America) care so much about this internal problem? You are not a US Citizen, you don't live in the US and these laws and issues have absolutely no impact on your daily life here in CH. So why the obsession?
I mean Christ! This weekend, someone tied circumcision and gun ownership together, with the latter proposed as compensating for the loss of a foreskin.
The reality is NO ONE in the US gives a sh:t about what Europeans think about US gun ownership, and in all seriousness, why should they? Really. WHY SHOULD THEY?
It is no different than if I were to bang on day in and day out about how stupid right hand driving is and that any person who lives in such a country is a complete moron.
Stop pretending you care about the poor, culturally ignorant, geographically challenged, crime ridden violent circumcised gun nuts or their victims. It seems a little disingenuous.
Is this your out of arguments plead?
Reply With Quote
  #674  
Old 12.10.2015, 09:35
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,981
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,049 Times in 1,795 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post

You still don't get the point, that you don't need to remove every single firearm from America to make an appreciable improvement to the gun death rate.
this is, to me, the most important part of the debate. 75% of America's gun violence occurs in our most poverty-stricken and lawless urban centers, which are areas that the average NRA gun nut is never going to venture into anyway. no amount of legislation is going to meaningfully impact gun violence in these areas, the same as drug legislation has not meaningfully impacted the use of drugs in these areas (though imprisoning 2 out of every 3 males has definitely exacerbated the problem).

the 25% of America's gun violence that occurs in its schools, shopping centers, churches and other suburban areas, however, would very definitely be reduced significantly by gun control legislation. seems to me this would be as obvious a place to start as any other.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #675  
Old 12.10.2015, 09:42
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,737
Groaned at 360 Times in 294 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Conversely.
Why do you (and the many others on this forum who seemingly and vociferously detest America) care so much about this internal problem? You are not a US Citizen, you don't live in the US and these laws and issues have absolutely no impact on your daily life here in CH. So why the obsession?
I mean Christ! This weekend, someone tied circumcision and gun ownership together, with the latter proposed as compensating for the loss of a foreskin.
The reality is NO ONE in the US gives a sh:t about what Europeans think about US gun ownership, and in all seriousness, why should they? Really. WHY SHOULD THEY?
It is no different than if I were to bang on day in and day out about how stupid right hand driving is and that any person who lives in such a country is a complete moron.
Stop pretending you care about the poor, culturally ignorant, geographically challenged, crime ridden violent circumcised gun nuts or their victims. It seems a little disingenuous.
Because domestic policy can influence foreign policy?
If a country thinks it is "OK" for the diseffected to wander around with guns and shoot innocent people it doesn't take too long for the people to think it is OK to fly a drone over school, bomb the crap out of it and killing a few hundred people because a couple of hundred miles away terrorists are camped.

The US relationship with guns and violence is peculiar - especially as so many Americans are proud of their heritage - a heritage their forefathers left behind in search of a better life without fear of violence.
__________________
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #676  
Old 12.10.2015, 09:54
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,737
Groaned at 360 Times in 294 Posts
Thanked 19,403 Times in 7,402 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
(though imprisoning 2 out of every 3 males has definitely exacerbated the problem).
Give or take, based on 2009 prison figures and wikipedia breakdown,
790k whites in prisons (197m people) = 0.4%
905k blacks in prisons (38m people) = 2.4%
475k hispanic in prisons (14.5m people) = 3.3%

And according to the 2007 census the following are classied as living in poverty:
9.9% of all white persons
12.1% of all Asian persons
26.6% of all Hispanic persons (of any race)
28.4% of all black persons.
Reply With Quote
  #677  
Old 12.10.2015, 10:54
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,398
Groaned at 544 Times in 418 Posts
Thanked 10,130 Times in 5,411 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
the 25% of America's gun violence that occurs in its schools, shopping centers, churches and other suburban areas, however, would very definitely be reduced significantly by gun control legislation. seems to me this would be as obvious a place to start as any other.
Definitely? What is your source for that, or is that magical thinking? Or is it a "gut feel"?

Anyway, thanks for all your concerns for the American public. We can take that concern at face value. But the actual contribution to the issue at hand does really add much to the issue. This is not a topic just discovered yesterday. Its been discussed for decades.

Two of the most influential studies on this topic were conducted by Scientific Criminologist. These studies provided an objective outlook on the topic. These studies have led to the relaxation of gun ownership restrictions. I think what happens with news of dead children is that it skews objectivity. But it is important to stay objective about the matter. These are what you need to talk to:

One study was by Professor John Lott, University of Chicago who published is paper "More Guns Equal Less Violent Crime":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

The other was by Professor Gary Kleck, who published "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America":
http://www.amazon.com/Point-Blank-Gu.../dp/020230762X

What they both found was where law-abiding citizens were allowed to carry firearms, the rate of violent crime decreased. So if you truly are concerned about victims of violent crimes, you really shouldn't ignore these as it could be saving lives. It doesn't really help to chant sycophantic mantras. It doesn't really contribute to anything, and nobody in the 'States listens to it.
__________________
exceptio probat regulam
Reply With Quote
  #678  
Old 12.10.2015, 11:10
baboon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Rheintal
Posts: 3,013
Groaned at 95 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 4,066 Times in 1,977 Posts
baboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond reputebaboon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Definitely? What is your source for that, or is that magical thinking?
The Australia experience debated earlier is pretty conclusive imo

Quote:
View Post
One study was by Professor John Lott, University of Chicago who published is paper "More Guns Equal Less Violent Crime":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime
1st Google hit..."John Richard Lott, Jr. is an American economist, political commentator, and gun rights advocate". Yes, very unbiased.

Quote:
View Post
The other was by Professor Gary Kleck, who published "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America":
http://www.amazon.com/Point-Blank-Gu.../dp/020230762X
Research heavily criticised and certainly of very dubious statistical certainty due to small sample sizes.. Nice critique here http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...r/trigger5.htm
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank baboon for this useful post:
  #679  
Old 12.10.2015, 11:37
Loz1983's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,762
Groaned at 499 Times in 305 Posts
Thanked 7,915 Times in 3,106 Posts
Loz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond reputeLoz1983 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Don't know if this was posted already. Hits home quite well though.

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Loz1983 for this useful post:
  #680  
Old 12.10.2015, 12:10
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 7,310
Groaned at 210 Times in 168 Posts
Thanked 12,975 Times in 5,331 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Quote:
View Post
Definitely? What is your source for that, or is that magical thinking? Or is it a "gut feel"?
I'm guessing, not the same source as the one you used:
Quote:
View Post
... gun control laws would have no effect on mass shootings.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
florida, gay, isis, killed, muslim students, shooting, usa




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My boss is a.......(fill in the gap) goombie General off-topic 35 28.01.2011 15:55
Recreational Shooting in the Geneva canton MAWLER Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 9 31.08.2010 17:04
What just happened please i could not access the forum Sutter Forum support 44 25.05.2009 20:03
Do I need to fill in Tax forms for the US? Roe Finance/banking/taxation 14 18.06.2008 19:17
What's just happened to the Swiss Franc? Tim Finance/banking/taxation 7 08.05.2007 17:24


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0