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  #961  
Old 04.12.2015, 15:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sure, have a sing-song, play John Lennon's "Imagine" endlessly if you'd like...
Again, your juvenile retort. Perhaps you'd like to resort to prayer, instead? It seems to work for NRA-funded GOP mouthpieces.
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Old 04.12.2015, 15:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Again, your juvenile retort. Perhaps you'd like to resort to prayer, instead? It seems to work for NRA-funded GOP mouthpieces.
And that is not a juvenile retort? Here you are trying to attribute the issue to me, little old me, with cliches, when the issue is bigger than you and me. Lame attempt at a discussion about an important topic. Did you have anything to add to the actual topic, or did you run out?
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I haven't read every post in this thread, so maybe someone mentioned this already, but the truth is that the majority of Americans support more restrictive gun laws. There are tons of polls supporting this. The real problem is that the NRA, it's well-funded lobbyists, and it's "scorecard" have a firm grip on nearly every Republican in office and a handful of Democrats, too. Take a look at this infographic (look at the Senate as well as the House)...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...itics/nra.html
...and see exactly who they gave a good "grade" to and how much they contributed in the last election. It's shameful...
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

The San Bernadino shooters bought their guns legally, in California, which has what some say is the nations strictest gun control laws. Just sayin'....

When people say "we need stricter gun control laws"; what does that mean exactly? I think there DOES need to be some stricter laws, today anyone can walk into Walmart and walk out with a rifle, and it really shouldn't be like that. There should be at least a minimum background check (criminal, metal illness), and a mandatory gun safety training course.

But then, if you look back at the spat of shootings in the US, I think almost all or most of the guns were bought legally, and stricter laws probably wouldn't have made much a difference. Like this weeks San Bernadino shooting. And then, the black-market guns are still always available, like in the Paris massacre last month. So really, access to guns are only half the problem. The motive is the other half. Some are mentally ill, some are radical Islamists, some are looking for "glory" or just snapped. These issues need to be addressed just as well.
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I haven't read every post in this thread, so maybe someone mentioned this already, but the truth is that the majority of Americans support more restrictive gun laws. There are tons of polls supporting this. The real problem is that the NRA, it's well-funded lobbyists, and it's "scorecard" have a firm grip on nearly every Republican in office and a handful of Democrats, too. Take a look at this infographic (look at the Senate as well as the House)...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...itics/nra.html
...and see exactly who they gave a good "grade" to and how much they contributed in the last election. It's shameful...
The NRA "Lobby" is somewhat of a misnomer. Yes, they receive money from companies including the gun companies. This is used to spread the pro gun message and recruit members. However, these companies are not allowed by law to provide funds for lobbying the government or officials. That comes from individual people. A combination of membership dues and individual donations.


If so many people are for gun control, they too are free to form an opposition group, make donations and try to influence politicians. Its a free country, it is perfectly legal.

It would however require people to put their money where their mouth is.....
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The San Bernadino shooters bought their guns legally, in California, which has what some say is the nations strictest gun control laws. Just sayin'....

When people say "we need stricter gun control laws"; what does that mean exactly? I think there DOES need to be some stricter laws, today anyone can walk into Walmart and walk out with a rifle, and it really shouldn't be like that. There should be at least a minimum background check (criminal, metal illness), and a mandatory gun safety training course.

But then, if you look back at the spat of shootings in the US, I think almost all or most of the guns were bought legally, and stricter laws probably wouldn't have made much a difference. Like this weeks San Bernadino shooting. And then, the black-market guns are still always available, like in the Paris massacre last month. So really, access to guns are only half the problem. The motive is the other half. Some are mentally ill, some are radical Islamists, some are looking for "glory" or just snapped. These issues need to be addressed just as well.
Sure. But what makes you think that other countries -- the ones with heavily restricted, or even no, access to firearms -- don't have exactly the same proportion of residents with mental illness, radical Islamic beliefs, glory-seeking tendencies or the propensity to snap? Australia has high rates of mental illness, possibly higher than the US. But we don't see the mentally ill conducting mass shootings on average every day of the year, do we?

The major difference between the US and most other countries is the free availability of firearms. None of this bollocks about "it's our culture, we grew up with guns". Australia was built on exploration and a "Wild West" mentality -- with criminals as the base for the population of most of its states, for cryin' out loud! -- but we saw sense and banned most firearms.

All the platitudes and recycled apologist nonsense that Phos comes out with does NOTHING to help solve the problem. He refuses to accept alternative viewpoints -- exactly as the NRA-funded politicians do. And I couldn't care less what the NRA may or may not have been decades ago, now it's just a single-platform advocate for gun liberalization.

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  #967  
Old 04.12.2015, 16:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Just outright banning the guns is not getting at the root cause of what brings people to do these types of acts. Its putting a band aid on a festering wound!

Consider, how many people here have access to guns. How many mass shootings are there here? Also, when people use the guns to commit murder, its almost always on themselves. They don't seem to want to take people with them
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The San Bernadino shooters bought their guns legally, in California, which has what some say is the nations strictest gun control laws. Just sayin'....
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Just outright banning the guns is not getting at the root cause of what brings people to do these types of acts. Its putting a band aid on a festering wound!

Consider, how many people here have access to guns. How many mass shootings are there here? Also, when people use the guns to commit murder, its almost always on themselves. They don't seem to want to take people with them

They also had a dozen pipe bombs. In a way, it was better they only used their guns instead of their pipe bombs.
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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They also had a dozen pipe bombs. In a way, it was better they only used their guns instead of their pipe bombs.
lets regulate Home Depot and Lowe's!!!
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But in a conversation yesterday, he said he is now considering getting firearms. Not for himself, nor for the love of it, nor for some ego trip, which is probably the extent of reason you folks can imagine. He said he is seriously considering it for the protection of his family. But you folks have no such sense to respect such sentiment. Between him and you folks, I don't see him as the asshole in the comparison. I respect his sentiment to protect his own family over your hot air.
Again, you miss the point.

Your friend is not "the asshole". And his autistic child is not in any way relevant, but it makes your friend so much cuddlier, doesn't it? The point is that your friend feels threatened by the widespread availability of firearms and fears that someone may use them against him and his family, so he feels he should up the ante and match the baddies with his own firepower. Sounds very Cold War-ish, doesn't it? Arms escalation... did America learn nothing from 45 years of confrontation?

Why not address the issue from the standpoint of de-escalation by removing the arms, coupled with prevention programs such as better identification and treatment of mental illness and tackling the problems of poverty and isolation in the ghettos? You know, stuff that Australia did 30 years ago?

But then, that would require American politicians to eat humble pie and admit that their country isn't the Greatest At Everything after all.

Is that level of contribution to the debate sufficient for you, Phos? Will you now respond with something thoughtful and considered, or will you just squeal "it'd never work in the US, and that's a FACT because I said so!" again?
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:50
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Just outright banning the guns is not getting at the root cause of what brings people to do these types of acts. Its putting a band aid on a festering wound!
I don't think anybody advocates a complete ban.

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Consider, how many people here have access to guns. How many mass shootings are there here? Also, when people use the guns to commit murder, its almost always on themselves. They don't seem to want to take people with them
I doubt anybody said it's a monocausal issue, but obviously without a gun it's impossible to shoot someone.

Granted some will use other means. But making access more difficult will deter a good many, just like it would save many of those committing suicide because with differene means it can't be carried out at a whim, is perhaps too painful, not known how to, etc.

Saying such and such measure won't stop <insert event> completely is kind of silly as nothing in this world is perfect, nothing works 100%. In my mind a fairly big percentage clearly is better than nothing at all, or letting the situation deteriorate even further.
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Old 04.12.2015, 16:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Again, you miss the point.

Your friend is not "the asshole". And his autistic child is not in any way relevant, but it makes your friend so much cuddlier, doesn't it? The point is that your friend feels threatened by the widespread availability of firearms and fears that someone may use them against him and his family, so he feels he should up the ante and match the baddies with his own firepower. Sounds very Cold War-ish, doesn't it? Arms escalation... did America learn nothing from 45 years of confrontation?

Why not address the issue from the standpoint of de-escalation by removing the arms, coupled with prevention programs such as better identification and treatment of mental illness and tackling the problems of poverty and isolation in the ghettos? You know, stuff that Australia did 30 years ago?

But then, that would require American politicians to eat humble pie and admit that their country isn't the Greatest At Everything after all.

Is that level of contribution to the debate sufficient for you, Phos? Will you now respond with something thoughtful and considered, or will you just squeal "it'd never work in the US, and that's a FACT because I said so!" again?
I think you miss the point.

I think you'd like to propagate this sentiment of some utopia that might be possible. But you ignore the objective realities as they exist today. And then, you get upset when someone blows up your self-hypnosis by telling you how it is. It's NOT how I want it, it is how IT IS. And so you attribute all pro gun stances to me. It's laughable.

I mean, I am holding this conversation just on factual information, with no opinion of my own. You only have these sentiments. Good for you. But know the difference.
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  #973  
Old 04.12.2015, 16:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The major difference betwen the US and most other countries is the free availability of firearms.
I think Switzerland is pretty heavily armed also, but gun violence is rare here. Why is that? Well, aside from it being a small country in comparison to the USA, it's also got a pretty good grip on social problems, mental illness, security, etc. It's not simply "more guns=more death", there's more factors to the equation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number...ita_by_country


Australia has 21 guns per 100 people, USA has got 112 guns for the same number of people. So based only on gun numbers, for every 5 mass shootings in the USA, there should be at least one in Oz. But that's probably not the case is it? Why is that? Because alot of other factors are involved that need to be addressed, guns is only one of them....but seems to be the one that gets the most attention.
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Old 04.12.2015, 17:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I think Switzerland is pretty heavily armed also, but gun violence is rare here. Why is that? Well, aside from it being a small country in comparison to the USA, it's also got a pretty good grip on social problems, mental illness, security, etc. It's not simply "more guns=more death", there's more factors to the equation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number...ita_by_country


Australia has 21 guns per 100 people, USA has got 112 guns for the same number of people. So based only on gun numbers, for every 5 mass shootings in the USA, there should be at least one in Oz. But that's probably not the case is it? Why is that? Because alot of other factors are involved that need to be addressed, guns is only one of them....but seems to be the one that gets the most attention.
Exactly what I wrote in my post just up there ^^. And I was thinking of Switzerland when I wrote "the major difference between the US and most other countries". Certainly, there are other factors at play -- as I wrote.

So we're in furious agreement.

(You'd need to adjust your mass shootings in Australia for population, too, but your point is correct).
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Old 04.12.2015, 17:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Give or take 3.5 per 100,000 are killed each year in the US by a gun related homicide.

This is give or take 1/3 the number of road deaths per year - equating to 1.1 deaths per million miles. Absolute deaths peaked in the early 70s and over 50,000 per year equating to around 5 deaths per million miles.

Since then the US has implemented federal level controls to make roads safer - energy absorbing bumpers, seat belts, airbags etc etc.

Yet in the same time gun deaths increased (in the 90s) and are now back at their 1970s level.
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Old 04.12.2015, 17:07
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You believe in the wisdom of the founding fathers and respect the constitution
Get it changed. It's outdated for modern times.


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You know that America is not an island like GB and OZ and even if you could rein in the 300 million existing guns in circulation, there's a mexican cartel or 50 that would love to diversify from smuggling only drugs to America...seriously, have we learned nothing on the war on drugs?
Europe isn't an island and it's connected to more "scary" countries than the U.S. is.

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Speaking of Mexico, they have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the world and it hasn't seemed to slow down the much more prevalant mass shootings
Agreed.

So compare Mexico with the U.S. Do you really think they are that similar? (obviously you do).

How about comparing the U.S. with Canada?
Canada also borders with a country with a violent gun culture - namely the U.S.
Gun crime is much lower in Canada. Gun ownership is much more regulated than in the U.S.
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Old 04.12.2015, 17:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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...None of this bollocks about "it's our culture, we grew up with guns". Australia was built on exploration and a "Wild West" mentality -- with criminals as the base for the population of most of its states, for cryin' out loud! -- but we saw sense and banned most firearms...
You'd think, but trust me - The mentality is different and unless you've lived there it's hard to understand. It's deeply, deeply ingrained about on the level of a religion. I am from a Wild West state, my first job was at a gun range, and we regularly had guns on display for show-and-tell at school. Gun safety courses were held on school grounds. Virtually everyone I know has a concealed carry permit and many of them are carrying on a regular basis.

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...But then, that would require American politicians to eat humble pie and admit that their country isn't the Greatest At Everything after all...
I don't see that happening in my lifetime. Any politician that doesn't tow the line of "Guns, Jesus and We're Number One!" doesn't stand a chance.
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Old 04.12.2015, 17:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It's pretty simple. Guns are currently a part of the US.

While you have lots of guns around, you're going to have more gun deaths than if there weren't lots of guns around. Not rocket science.

In the US, people get to vote and campaign for change. So far, it seems that as a nation, it has been decided that they will keep guns.

Gun deaths are unfortunate, but they are the price that is paid to have guns.
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It always has been, and as historical fact, it is objective reality. You can disagree with it, but it doesn't change it. I can agree the world could be a better place if there were no guns, but that IF is hypothetical and imaginary.

One can try self-hypnosis to deal with it, and chant mantras about gun control endlessly. Except objective reality is not altered by self-hypnosis, and does not affect other people who do not hypnotise themselves into some other imagined alternate reality.

Well, one can also try to proselytize their belief, which appears to be what others are trying to do here. Sure, have a sing-song, play John Lennon's "Imagine" endlessly if you'd like, but other people are currently trying to deal with their realities in a real way. They'll forego sentiments for practicality and pragmatism.

Forget trying to impose your self-hypnosis and sentiments on others. I don't think they are interested, nor does it work. Try reasoning instead of trying to obliterate objective reality. One is more likely to get real outcomes.
It seems like you can take the Americans away from the guns (by relocating them to more peaceful places), but you cannot take the guns away from the Americans

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Old 04.12.2015, 17:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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but you cannot take the guns away from the Americans
well you can, but you have to pry them from their cold dead hands
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Old 04.12.2015, 17:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It seems like you can take the Americans away from the guns (by relocating them to more peaceful places), but you cannot take the guns away from the Americans
Maybe not being a gun advocate is much more likely the attribute of a person that's likely to move abroad. Perhaps it's correlation rather than coincidence; just a guess.

It's like the saying "power corrupts". In my mind it certainly does, but there may also be a precondition that has corruptible people more often seek positions of power than people that are more difficult to corrupt.
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