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  #1061  
Old 12.12.2015, 14:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You should never shoot a target that you can't identify.
I am sure it is not the only criterion, indeed.
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  #1062  
Old 12.12.2015, 15:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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How many have died because they didn't shoot back?

http://abc13.com/news/2-men-charged-...-wife/1095839/
.
Do you answer your own questions or the ones people ask you?

I asked you how many homeowners brandishing their own guns in an attempted burglary have ended up dead - because they shot back?

In this case the pastor's wife didn't shoot back as she didn't have a gun.

That's fact.

You're making a childish assumption that if she did have a gun, she would have defeated two young armed men.


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You should never shoot a target that you can't identify. Anyone who has had proper gun training would know that.
Yet in a previous post, you cited as a positive use of a gun, someone shooting at a burglar through a closed door - who then decided to shoot back.

So which is? You seem to have got your logic a bit twisted and it's hardly at a moment of stress.

I'd hate to be near you if you had a gun because your powers of reasoning appear to be flawed and inconsistent.

Why not keep the guns for the professionals and keep watching the action movies? It would keep everyone safer.

Last edited by Tom1234; 12.12.2015 at 17:03.
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  #1063  
Old 13.12.2015, 12:40
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Do you answer your own questions or the ones people ask you?

I asked you how many homeowners brandishing their own guns in an attempted burglary have ended up dead - because they shot back?
You don't have access to Google?

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I'd hate to be near you if you had a gun because your powers of reasoning appear to be flawed and inconsistent.
I've been referencing guns as protection against home-invasions. Why would you be in my home?

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Why not keep the guns for the professionals and keep watching the action movies? It would keep everyone safer.
It would be great if you told that to all the armed criminals . But you do have a right to defend yourself if armed intruders break in your home. If you chose not to defend yourself, that's your right too.

...as for the "professionals" (ie: police) they make mistakes too, if you follow the news, there's been plenty cases of that lately. So be aware mistakes are not limited only to civilians.
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  #1064  
Old 13.12.2015, 12:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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...as for the "professionals" (ie: police) they make mistakes too, if you follow the news, there's been plenty cases of that lately. So be aware mistakes are not limited only to civilians.
This reasoning applies to surgeons too, but you surely don't conduct surgery yourself.

That being said, we see here two beliefs confronted to each other as beliefs. There is nothing wrong with either beliefs, it's just that there is nothing one can say to the other part to make them reevaluate their belief. The ones believe the benefit of defending oneself with own firearms is greater than the risks of making more victims, the others believe the risks of killing more innocent people and people in general is greater than the alleged benefit of scaring off potential criminals.

Beliefs are beliefs, I don't see where there is space for reasoning here. Sorry.
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  #1065  
Old 13.12.2015, 13:21
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I don't think there is a lack of weapons in homes in the US.
Pretty much everybody who wants one, already has one. At least one.
More guns wouldn't solve anything. It's a classic "more of the same" knee-jerk reaction (IMO).

I'm not sure how it works, but aren't you supposed to store the weapon and the ammunition in a separate place?
The fact that these people shot back means (to me) that they had a loaded weapon somewhere.
There's probably a case per week (perceived) where a child shoots another child with such a gun "lying around".

Maybe people should rather invest in better front-doors, so these "home-invasions" are stopped there?
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  #1066  
Old 13.12.2015, 16:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The ones believe the benefit of defending oneself with own firearms is greater than the risks of making more victims, the others believe the risks of killing more innocent people and people in general is greater than the alleged benefit of scaring off potential criminals.

Beliefs are beliefs, I don't see where there is space for reasoning here. Sorry.
True, there is no real right or wrong answer. And owning a gun does not mean 100% security. But if some armed criminals are breaking into my home, I "believe" I'd like to have a gun

PS- "Home Invasions" are not "normal" burglaries, where one guy is looking for some jewelry or money and is scared off when he/she sees someone is home. Home invasions are much more violent in nature, involving rapes and killings. When you break into someones home armed, it's a felony with 10+ years of jail time, usually they know that and don't want to leave witnesses who can ID them. For example with the pastors wife, they raped her then killed her so she wouldn't be a witness, but also almost killed a sleeping neighbor nearby....

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They allegedly broke into an apartment miles away from the Blackburns where they stole an iPhone from the sleeping occupant’s bedroom, car keys, a laptop and a wallet.
After discovering a security camera in the residence, Taylor wanted to kill the sleeping occupant, but Watson and Gordon talked him down, the account says.

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I'm not sure how it works, but aren't you supposed to store the weapon and the ammunition in a separate place?
The fact that these people shot back means (to me) that they had a loaded weapon somewhere.
There's probably a case per week (perceived) where a child shoots another child with such a gun "lying around".
Of course a loaded gun should never be left lying around. If it's stored in a lock-box tho it's fine to leave gun and ammo together.

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Maybe people should rather invest in better front-doors, so these "home-invasions" are stopped there?
...unless your house has windows...or a back door...or....
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  #1067  
Old 13.12.2015, 16:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You don't have access to Google?
And so do you. But you choose to be quite selective in what you put on here.

That's why I questioned it.

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I've been referencing guns as protection against home-invasions. Why would you be in my home?
Perhaps I've called round to borrow a cup of sugar, or am Trick or treating with my kids, or I see someone acting suspiciously around the back of your house -you know, the kind of things that normal neighbours do (rather than arm themselves to the teeth with automatic weapons).

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...as for the "professionals" (ie: police) they make mistakes too, if you follow the news, there's been plenty cases of that lately. So be aware mistakes are not limited only to civilians.
Yes, they make mistakes despite all the training, including under extreme stress etc etc.

But you, on the other hand, have just fired a few shots down your local range in peaceful and calm conditions - and the target wasn't moving.
(I'm not going to include you watching Die Hard movies as training, Esto, it really doesn't count for training).
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  #1068  
Old 13.12.2015, 20:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I've been referencing guns as protection against home-invasions. Why would you be in my home?
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Perhaps I've called round to borrow a cup of sugar, or am Trick or treating with my kids, or I see someone acting suspiciously around the back of your house -you know, the kind of things that normal neighbours do (rather than arm themselves to the teeth with automatic weapons).
Why do you keep making the generalization that all gun owners are irresponsible and trigger-happy idiots? Most gun owners I know are very responsible and intelligent. When someone makes broad generalizations about certain groups of people...well...there's a word for that.
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  #1069  
Old 13.12.2015, 20:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Some time ago I was staying with someone when there was a knock on the door in the middle of the night. There was no reason at all why anybody should be at the door, given that the house was quite a long way away from either civilisation or hiking trails.

I alerted the householder who went to the door and had a brief conversation with the visitor, who turned out to have no good reason to be there and who, therefore, was dismissed.

It was only later that I found out that the householder had been armed during the whole incident. No shots were fired. No weapons were brandished. No threats were made. The whole incident passed calmly and nobody got hurt. Nevertheless, I found it quite comforting to know that the householder had the means to defend us had the incident turned nasty.

The stereotyping about "gun-happy" yanks in this thread is really quite tiresome. Sure, there are some unpleasant people who think it's fine to go around shooting at people. But there are also hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of quiet, sensible, sober gun owners, many of whom live a long way away from the nearest police station, who are grateful to be allowed the means to defend themselves and their families in the very unlikely (but not impossible) event that someone might wish to cause them harm.

Most American city dwellers don't get it, let alone Brits and Europeans.

Maybe there should be different constitutions for city people and country people? I doubt they'll ever see eye to eye on this subject.
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  #1070  
Old 13.12.2015, 20:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Some time ago I was staying with someone when there was a knock on the door in the middle of the night. There was no reason at all why anybody should be at the door, given that the house was quite a long way away from either civilisation or hiking trails.

I alerted the householder who went to the door and had a brief conversation with the visitor, who turned out to have no good reason to be there and who, therefore, was dismissed.

It was only later that I found out that the householder had been armed during the whole incident. No shots were fired. No weapons were brandished. No threats were made. The whole incident passed calmly and nobody got hurt. Nevertheless, I found it quite comforting to know that the householder had the means to defend us had the incident turned nasty.

The stereotyping about "gun-happy" yanks in this thread is really quite tiresome. Sure, there are some unpleasant people who think it's fine to go around shooting at people. But there are also hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of quiet, sensible, sober gun owners, many of whom live a long way away from the nearest police station, who are grateful to be allowed the means to defend themselves and their families in the very unlikely (but not impossible) event that someone might wish to cause them harm.

Most American city dwellers don't get it, let alone Brits and Europeans.

.
So there are no places in the U.K. and the rest of Europe in the middle of nowhere, a long way from a Police station or neighbours? And they don't feel the need to have guns.

Or, are you suggesting that there are more weirdos and freaks in the U.S. on average compared with other countries?
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  #1071  
Old 13.12.2015, 21:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Why do you keep making the generalization that all gun owners are irresponsible and trigger-happy idiots? Most gun owners I know are very responsible and intelligent.
Well obviously you are wrong there otherwise there wouldn't be so many people getting shot.

And anyway, just because someone is intelligent or responsible, it doesn't follow that they won't act out of character when under stress.

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When someone makes broad generalizations about certain groups of people...well...there's a word for that.
Yes, what is it? A statistician perhaps?
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  #1072  
Old 13.12.2015, 21:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So there are no places in the U.K. and the rest of Europe in the middle of nowhere, a long way from a Police station or neighbours? And they don't feel the need to have guns.

Or, are you suggesting that there are more weirdos and freaks in the U.S. on average compared with other countries?
I know people in the UK who have guns at home. I stayed with a friend who showed me his interesting collection of shotguns. He told me it is not uncommon for people who want to own guns to get them.

As for applying statistics, I don't think the issue is a matter of statistical analysis. Its a matter of basic principles. If a person wants to defend himself or others with a firearm, they can choose to. It has no relevance whatsoever to what other people may have done with their guns.
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  #1073  
Old 13.12.2015, 21:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I know people in the UK who have guns at home. I stayed with a friend who showed me his interesting collection of shotguns. He told me it is not uncommon for people who want to own guns to get them.

But they're not for self-defence. Esto is making the argument for guns as a means of self defence.
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  #1074  
Old 13.12.2015, 21:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But they're not for self-defence. Esto is making the argument for guns as a means of self defence.
Other than shooting skeet, I don't see why they wouldn't use it to defend themselves, should a situation arise.
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  #1075  
Old 13.12.2015, 21:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Other than shooting skeet, I don't see why they wouldn't use it to defend themselves, should a situation arise.

True - to quote a well worn phrase "I thought it was a fox after the hen house again so I just let fly!"
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  #1076  
Old 13.12.2015, 21:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Other than shooting skeet, I don't see why they wouldn't use it to defend themselves, should a situation arise.
Yes, I can see that.
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  #1077  
Old 13.12.2015, 22:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But they're not for self-defence. Esto is making the argument for guns as a means of self defence.
Can be used for both, actually. And the U.K. has its share of country homes too.

The Durango '95 purred away a real horrowshow - a nice, warm vibraty feeling all through your guttiwuts. And soon it was trees and dark, my brothers, with real country dark.

What we were after now was the old surprise visit. That was a real kick and good for laughs and lashings of the old ultaviolence.
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  #1078  
Old 13.12.2015, 22:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I don't get the trigger happy redneck yank gun owners comments, either. There are so many places aside of the US where guns are frequent, maybe even more. And people actually get trained at shooting (I did, and I know bunch of kids who target shoot here, too, and taking trains filled with armed soldiers here doesn't bother me, either). Most people who grow up with guns back where I was born actually turn into biathlonists or competition target shooters. It's a skill like any other, and considering the risk involved, it turns people into careful beings. Not mass murderers, statistically speaking. And the fact media feed on portraying yanks certain way...how credible is it really. US is a huge area, any other large area will have certain density of crazy stories. I believe violence is a sociological phenomenon. What people use for violent acts doesn't have to enable. They would use whatever.
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  #1079  
Old 13.12.2015, 22:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Why do you keep making the generalization that all gun owners are irresponsible and trigger-happy idiots? Most gun owners I know are very responsible and intelligent. When someone makes broad generalizations about certain groups of people...well...there's a word for that.
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Yes, what is it? A statistician perhaps?
No, more along the lines of words like "racist" or "ignorant". A statistician would tell you the number of gun owners compared to the number of gun accidents are very small.

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Esto is making the argument for guns as a means of self defence.
Yes, what a bizarre idea
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Old 13.12.2015, 23:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The stereotyping about "gun-happy" yanks in this thread is really quite tiresome.
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I don't get the trigger happy redneck yank gun owners comments, either.
Apart from being tiring, it is flat out ignorant. Its a cliche and caricature from the 1800s that sound really stupid to repeat over and over again. But yeah, knock yourself out.
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