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  #1221  
Old 16.12.2015, 14:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

since most people in europe do not use guns on a regular basis and it is not part of the culture here, i think it is easy to write-off all gun supporters as gun nutjobs.

we therefore end up with a situation where we:

1. vilify one side; and
2. are too eager to impose a ban since it means we give up nothing ourselves (hey it's easy to be generous when somebody else pays) and perhaps think too little about the effectiveness of the proposed measure (again, who cares about value for money/effectiveness when somebody else pays)

however, maybe it is possible to translate this maybe to get a better understanding.

Alcohol analogy

In the US, about 88'000 people die each year from alcohol related deaths. this doesn't factor into non-death cases where you have injuries to babies and young children from exposure to alcohol.

There are over 10'000 alcohol related driving fatalities each year in the US.

So it seems simple, we ban alcohol, we save almost 100k lives each year in the US?

So would you support an alcohol ban? What arguments would you put forward against a blanket ban? Or maybe more selective control? Should we have a licence to buy alcohol? Should we have a check against previous criminal behaviour to ban those from getting it? Would it stop them from getting it from somebody else? Should we register each bottle bought to try to prevent this? Would it help?

Car analogy

It is the year 2030, 15 years from today. Automated driverless cars are everywhere, they circle the cities constantly and people call them from their smartgadgets and they arrive in seconds and take you to your destination. All for a price that is cheaper than car ownership even for a large family.

Parking is a thing of the past. As is insurance, winter tyre changes, filling the tank and most importantly accidents have been eliminated.

Still a few people like to drive even though the requirements have become stricter and it has been more difficult to get a license. Tests are now annual and driving has to be done mainly on racetracks (range) though several people passing the advanced tests have a permit to drive on the road (carry).

Today there was an accident. 2 children were killed as they ran across the road. Cars in the area reconstruct a 4D simulation and it is clear that the driver did not see the children due to the way they moved and various obstacles. of course, for the automated car they would have been detected and tracked by the 360 degree cameras as well as inter-car communication between cars that were in the way of the human driver.

It's the 5th accident this year. And as for the previous ones, this has resulted in a public outcry on when we will have a full human driving ban. Human drivers are of course speed-crazed mechanical fetishists who should not be allowed on the road. right?
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  #1222  
Old 16.12.2015, 15:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Neither cars nor alcohol are tools designed to end life.
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  #1223  
Old 16.12.2015, 15:28
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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however, maybe it is possible to translate this maybe to get a better understanding.
I don't actually believe everyone should have a gun. I don't even 100% believe everyone should have a right to own a gun. But there is no reliable way of identifying who should have this right. For sure, violent criminals should not have one, and neither do psychiatric patients. This could potentially be extended to those with a propensity for extremism, but that is yet to be defined.

I do believe there are some who should (and does) have a right to own a gun.

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According to the article there was a minute long shootout between a Korean restaurant operator and his allies on one side and a construction company which did renovation works in said restaurant on the other side.
Particularly from personal experience, I know of a migrant family whose father raised 4 boys. He worked hard and finally set up a successful sporting goods store for himself and his family. It was their livelihood, and source of living. Two of his sons were in the military, and he was once in the military, so they owned guns. A riot broke out in their city. Mobs were ransacking and setting fire to stores. He, his sons, and some of their friends, went to their store to protect it, armed. The slept there for 2 nights. The police were absolutely useless. When rioters realized that store was protected, they avoided it. The other stores around them were ransacked and burned, while their store remained intact. Their actions were justified.

Those commenting on the thread don't take certain realities of life like these much into consideration. Perhaps they also think that everyone should get an expat job in CH and drive an Audi? So when commenting on the situations in the US they don't even have the wherewithal to understand, I would have to say it really doesn't apply to the realities on the ground.
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  #1224  
Old 16.12.2015, 15:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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since most people in europe do not use guns on a regular basis and it is not part of the culture here, i think it is easy to write-off all gun supporters as gun nutjobs.

we therefore end up with a situation where we:

1. vilify one side; and
2. are too eager to impose a ban since it means we give up nothing ourselves (hey it's easy to be generous when somebody else pays) and perhaps think too little about the effectiveness of the proposed measure (again, who cares about value for money/effectiveness when somebody else pays)

however, maybe it is possible to translate this maybe to get a better understanding.
Ban =/= Controll.
Unfortunalty, there are dick heads on both side which are unable to distinguish those two from each other.

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Alcohol analogy[/B]

So would you support an alcohol ban? What arguments would you put forward against a blanket ban? Or maybe more selective control? Should we have a licence to buy alcohol? Should we have a check against previous criminal behaviour to ban those from getting it? Would it stop them from getting it from somebody else? Should we register each bottle bought to try to prevent this? Would it help?
Luckely the U.S. allready tried this one. Problem #1: Alcohol production is so simple, even the most dim witted simplest mushroom head can do it. (Got it?)

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Car analogy

It is the year 2030...
[...]
Today there was an accident. 2 children were killed as they ran across the road. Cars in the area reconstruct a 4D simulation and it is clear that the driver did not see the children due to the way they moved and various obstacles. of course, for the automated car they would have been detected and tracked by the 360 degree cameras as well as inter-car communication between cars that were in the way of the human driver.

It's the 5th accident this year. And as for the previous ones, this has resulted in a public outcry on when we will have a full human driving ban. Human drivers are of course speed-crazed mechanical fetishists who should not be allowed on the road. right?
I honestly belive that will happen. The fewer XYZ death's there are, the more will they make it in the news and have to be prevented at all cost.

There is a also a certain higher limit where you will say stop it, we have enough XYZ deaths we have to change something.

In between it is called life, which unfortunalty has some perils which we have to live with (or rather die by).

Thats where Phos opinion comes into play: Gun deaths are no effing problem. Case closed. (Which is valid point of view, but pleas do not call it a fact)

(XYZ == drowning, car accident, electro, plane crash, what ever )
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  #1225  
Old 16.12.2015, 15:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Thats where Phos opinion comes into play: Gun deaths are no effing problem. Case closed. (Which is valid point of view, but pleas do not call it a fact)
No, no, no, no. Don't put words in my mouth. This is a problem with human violence. Guns likely avoid deaths more than it causes it. Of course you would not read or hear about them. They aren't reported. There are stastics that back this.
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  #1226  
Old 16.12.2015, 15:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You're still getting it wrong. You keep talking about Phos and your perception of his opinion, but Phos is telling you facts, which is the reality of the situation and the laws. You're not up against Phos' opinion, your opinion is up against the reality of the situation. Phos is the straw man in your argument.


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  #1227  
Old 16.12.2015, 15:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Ban =/= Controll.
Unfortunalty, there are dick heads on both side which are unable to distinguish those two from each other.



Luckely the U.S. allready tried this one. Problem #1: Alcohol production is so simple, even the most dim witted simplest mushroom head can do it. (Got it?)



I honestly belive that will happen. The fewer XYZ death's there are, the more will they make it in the news and have to be prevented at all cost.

There is a also a certain higher limit where you will say stop it, we have enough XYZ deaths we have to change something.

In between it is called life, which unfortunalty has some perils which we have to live with (or rather die by).

Thats where Phos opinion comes into play: Gun deaths are no effing problem. Case closed. (Which is valid point of view, but pleas do not call it a fact)

(XYZ == drowning, car accident, electro, plane crash, what ever )
Many people believe that the alcohol prohibition in the US was the driver that created organised crime.
Drug prohibition has also generated huge criminal organisations and, for example, in Mexico extremely brutal gangs.

I assume gun prohibition would not generate new criminal activities.
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  #1228  
Old 16.12.2015, 15:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I don't think the criminalisation of alcohol or drugs is in any way similar to any restriction on guns, the comparison is ludicrous. Alcohol and drugs, while maybe dangerous and addicitive, are primarily associated with having a good time. While you may argue that squeezing off a few rounds at the range is your idea of a good time, it doesn't come close to the social aspects that drink and drugs share.
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  #1229  
Old 16.12.2015, 16:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

In all countries where gun controls exist, you don't see the same market for guns as you do for weed. I'm pretty sure that in the uk, most dealers, while maybe having the correct connections to the underground, would still look at you funny if you asked for a gun, and while they may be able to accomplish it, would be wary of any consequences should you use it outside of anything distinctly underground in nature.
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  #1230  
Old 16.12.2015, 16:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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since most people in europe do not use guns on a regular basis and it is not part of the culture here, i think it is easy to write-off all gun supporters as gun nutjobs.
Considering this is a swiss forum I think you're being very unfair at least to the locals. Since having and regularly using a rifle is typical for half the male population they obviously have (enough IMO) real-world experience.

The difference I think is that around here a gun/rifle is mostly looked at as a tool.

A deadly tool that's designed to do one thing and one thing only, i.e. to kill humans and/or animals, but a tool nonetheless. Like any tool there are instances where its use is appropriate or perhaps even mandated by the situation, but outside such a situation and therefor for the vast majority of the time it's utterly useless. Ballast. A dust catcher except that it's a potentially lethal dust catcher.

I'm leaving out the analogies' quotes to save space. I think they're poorly chosen because a firearm is designed to do one thing and one thing only: to kill. When you practice you effectively prepare to kill. Alcohol and cars have clearly different purposes, abusing or misusing them is something quite different.

I don't mean to say that those practicing on a shooting range have the intent to kill; the (presumed) fact that gun enthusiasts have fun practicing has zero influence on the underlying purpose. And yet they prepare for the lethal use. It's why annual shooting is mandatory for swiss soldiers.

What's more, as far as I'm aware nobody on here is advocating a gun ban. The suggestion is control (regulation), not ban. And that's exactly what's being done with both alcohol and cars.
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  #1231  
Old 16.12.2015, 16:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No, no, no, no. Don't put words in my mouth. This is a problem with human violence. Guns likely avoid deaths more than it causes it. Of course you would not read or hear about them. They aren't reported. There are stastics that back this.
Weird logic. How can count you an unknown event?
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  #1232  
Old 16.12.2015, 16:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

If someone is looking for a gun in a country where they're controlled, it's sure as hell not because they really, really need to shoot a target
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Old 16.12.2015, 16:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't think the criminalisation of alcohol or drugs is in any way similar to any restriction on guns, the comparison is ludicrous. Alcohol and drugs, while maybe dangerous and addicitive, are primarily associated with having a good time. While you may argue that squeezing off a few rounds at the range is your idea of a good time, it doesn't come close to the social aspects that drink and drugs share.
To boot:
If it was about the shooting itself (concentrate, aim, keep increasing the pull on the trigger etc.) any small caliber gun, BB and other air gun would do just as well.
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  #1234  
Old 16.12.2015, 16:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't mean to say that those practicing on a shooting range have the intent to kill; the (presumed) fact that gun enthusiasts have fun practicing has zero influence on the underlying purpose. And yet they prepare for the lethal use. It's why annual shooting is mandatory for swiss soldiers.
Many many years ago I listened to a radio documentary on the guy who invented the Kalashnikov. His name, surprisingly, was Kalashnikov. He was saying that the purpose of a good gun is not to kill but to wound as for every enemy combattant you injure, yo are not only taking that individual off the front line for a very long time but also the people and resources required to take care of that person in hospital. So if you require a lot of nurses in a war, those are resources being diverted from other activities such as manufacturing armaments or making food. Killing enemy soldiers outright or intentionally is thus grossly sub-efficient from a strategic point of view. A good gun and a good marksman causes injuries requiring the maximum of resources to treat.

That may sound very cynical, but it does goes against the idea that a gun's primary purpose is to kill, and spoken by one of the most renowned inventors in the field.
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  #1235  
Old 16.12.2015, 17:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Considering this is a swiss forum I think you're being very unfair at least to the locals. Since having and regularly using a rifle is typical for half the male population they obviously have (enough IMO) real-world experience.
yes, but i said europe, not switzerland.

also i think most posters on this forum are expats anyway.

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A deadly tool that's designed to do one thing and one thing only, i.e. to kill humans and/or animals, but a tool nonetheless. Like any tool there are instances where its use is appropriate or perhaps even mandated by the situation, but outside such a situation and therefor for the vast majority of the time it's utterly useless. Ballast. A dust catcher except that it's a potentially lethal dust catcher.

I'm leaving out the analogies' quotes to save space. I think they're poorly chosen because a firearm is designed to do one thing and one thing only: to kill. When you practice you effectively prepare to kill. Alcohol and cars have clearly different purposes, abusing or misusing them is something quite different.

I don't mean to say that those practicing on a shooting range have the intent to kill; the (presumed) fact that gun enthusiasts have fun practicing has zero influence on the underlying purpose. And yet they prepare for the lethal use. It's why annual shooting is mandatory for swiss soldiers.

What's more, as far as I'm aware nobody on here is advocating a gun ban. The suggestion is control (regulation), not ban. And that's exactly what's being done with both alcohol and cars.
i actually disagree with you here.

while a gun or knife is a weapon and can be used to kill. in civilian hands, the vast majority are not used to kill humans (which is the only objectionable use - ok, i'm ignoring hunting, but that is a different debate).

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What's more, as far as I'm aware nobody on here is advocating a gun ban. The suggestion is control (regulation), not ban. And that's exactly what's being done with both alcohol and cars.
but regulation/control can be the same as a ban. e.g. ban on 'assault rifles' ban on open carry or ban on concealed carry. ban on magazines with a certain capacity.

while controls to prevent people convicted of firearms offenses at first sight seems sensible and perhaps would be supported by the majority of people, it isn't without debate, after all, you would be taking away somebody's constitutional rights. somebody who is ostensibly a fully rehabilitated member of society.

while you can argue about whether gun controls result in more deaths or not, i take a simpler view:

i assume that more guns means more gun deaths as a common sense starting point. the same that cars mean car deaths and alcohol means alcohol related deaths.

the question for society is whether the enjoyment that people get from alcohol is worth the deaths. whether the utility from cars is worth the deaths. whether gun ownership and the american constitution as it is today is worth the deaths.

i believe the answer from society, as things stand today, is yes, they are worth the deaths. which when you put it bluntly is not particularly nice, after all, is having a drink really more important than somebody's life? my answer is yes. there is more to life than just living, than just surviving. it isn't enough to just live, but the aim is to live well.

the deaths are not deliberate, but accidental and we should do what we can to prevent them. but how far we go is another question. and different people will have different view as to where we draw the line when it comes to our freedom and our ability to live our lives as we see fit.
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  #1236  
Old 16.12.2015, 17:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Weird logic. How can count you an unknown event?
Estimates by statistics. A survey was conducted on gun owners about incidents of use of their firearm for defensive purposes. The stories were then verified and extrapolated that guns were used defensively an estimated 2.5 million times a year in the US.
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  #1237  
Old 16.12.2015, 17:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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To boot:
If it was about the shooting itself (concentrate, aim, keep increasing the pull on the trigger etc.) any small caliber gun, BB and other air gun would do just as well.
I always thought most sport and competition shooting does use small calibers, but I'm no expert.
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  #1238  
Old 16.12.2015, 17:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I do see parallels here, most people would see someone demanding the right to brandish a gun in public here in switzerland as a total lunatic, and while phos may pull studies on how guns are used defensively, almost no one here worries about having a gun pulled on them.
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  #1239  
Old 16.12.2015, 17:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I think the right to carry a gun is fundamentally different to the right to drink or take drugs.

The right to carry a weapon is nothing to do with your enjoyment and fulllment in life, it could be considered protection if you lived in anarchy and had a very dim view of humanity, but in a governed state with a police force, it becomes more about intimidation and having the right to end someone else's life without any due process. Alcohol and drugs lie completely outside of that area and to make any comparison between weapons and substances is as dumb as they come.
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  #1240  
Old 16.12.2015, 17:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Speaking mostly of the western world, gun controls have clearly shown to have been successful, and while there may be very vocal opponents, no one misses their guns to the same extent that they may miss drink or drugs, and in many ways, in most countries with controls, people are still more able to enjoy aspects of gun culture than they may be legally allowed to enjoy a joint.

When I see someone with a joint, I have zero fear that it's someone about to murder me, but some guy who's proudly carrying a gun in a situation where it's not needed is someone I think is just looking for the right opportunity (in their mind) to use it.
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