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Old 16.12.2015, 17:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

And while people may argue that other weapons will just replace guns, I don't see anyone walking around with swords and clubs in everyday life, in general, and maybe it is a cultural thing, we take a dim view on people proudly brandishing weapons of any kind.
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Old 16.12.2015, 17:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Estimates by statistics. A survey was conducted on gun owners about incidents of use of their firearm for defensive purposes. The stories were then verified and extrapolated that guns were used defensively an estimated 2.5 million times a year in the US.
Some people asked gun owners whether their use of guns was responsible and justified? That sounds impartial and unbiased.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

"The right to carry a weapon is nothing to do with your enjoyment and fulllment in life"

again i disagree. protection may be one element, but i think people do enjoy owning and shooting guns. same as they might enjoy owning and using anything else (e.g. motorcycles).

i have to say, in switzerland, where guns are available, i don't feel particularly afraid.

also, i travel to texas quite a lot and there many people openly carry guns and have them in their trucks and i have to say, i didn't feel particularly afraid there either. on the contrary, the casual way that firearms are just part of normal life helps to put you at ease.

the only time i did feel afraid of guns was in chicago when i ended up in the wrong neighbourhood and shots were being fired in anger.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:13
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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also, i travel to texas quite a lot and there many people openly carry guns and have them in their trucks and i have to say, i didn't feel particularly afraid there either. on the contrary, the casual way that firearms are just part of normal life helps to put you at ease.
I find people in areas where there is likely to be guns are less confrontational, and more likely to back down. They are more respectful of other people's personal space. I have never had anyone bother me in Texas, nor am I keen to bother anyone there. Same in gang infested areas, people would rather de-escalate situations. I actually find people in Switzerland are more likely to get in your face, but don't worry, I won't shoot them.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And while people may argue that other weapons will just replace guns, I don't see anyone walking around with swords and clubs in everyday life, in general, and maybe it is a cultural thing, we take a dim view on people proudly brandishing weapons of any kind.
Therre are also laws on carrying swords and clubs, which mostly say you can't.

I recently had a chat with a guy in Blighty who does middle ages reenactment. He says it's not at all a case of everybody put on their armour and have a pretend battle and lots of fun. On private land they can indeed do pretty much that, but because many of their activities have a component of recruitment and/or education in them, this requires performing in public spaces and there are all sorts of loops you have to jump through before you can even think of doing that.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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again i disagree. protection may be one element, but i think people do enjoy owning and shooting guns. same as they might enjoy owning and using anything else (e.g. motorcycles).
Again, I disagree, a firearm is not like a motorcycle, or car, or armchair or any other inanimate object, a firearm is a weapon, while other objects can be used as improvised weapons, they are not designed as weapons. It is not the same as owning anything else, if a nation arms it armies with motorcylces and no guns, you have no need to worry, if your local gang decks itself out with a nice kitchen, there's not much reason to worry.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:22
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Estimates by statistics. A survey was conducted on gun owners about incidents of use of their firearm for defensive purposes. The stories were then verified and extrapolated that guns were used defensively an estimated 2.5 million times a year in the US.
With a sample of merely 5000 respondents it seems difficult to claim they're representative, nor do I remember having seen such a claim in the wiki article. And yet he does exactly that by extrapolating them to the fulle 350 million.

Additionally, it seems every "use" was counted, including showing them in a simple argument to quelch the possibility of a fistfight. For one I would love to see how it was determined that otherwise a fight would have resulted. Plus imagine what might happen if everybody was armed: Suddenly the threat would no longer work, perhaps even result in a shooting that would otherwise at worst have turned into a brawl.

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I always thought most sport and competition shooting does use small calibers, but I'm no expert.
You're probably at least partially right, I think small calibres are used in most competitions shown on tv. Which begs the question what assault rifles are bought for other than with the intent of lethal use.

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the deaths are not deliberate, but accidental and we should do what we can to prevent them. but how far we go is another question. and different people will have different view as to where we draw the line when it comes to our freedom and our ability to live our lives as we see fit.
With guns the vast majority actually are intentional.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Therre are also laws on carrying swords and clubs, which mostly say you can't.

I recently had a chat with a guy in Blighty who does middle ages reenactment. He says it's not at all a case of everybody put on their armour and have a pretend battle and lots of fun. On private land they can indeed do pretty much that, but because many of their activities have a component of recruitment and/or education in them, this requires performing in public spaces and there are all sorts of loops you have to jump through before you can even think of doing that.

Well yeah, but if you see someone decked out in medieval armour carrying a sword, you're not going to see them in the same light as some dude in jeans and t-shirt carrying a glock.

I'm all for laws that stop people carrying offensive weapons in public, and while your mate there faces restrictions, he still can get permission so long as it's clear he's not gonna be scaring random people.

Joe gunrights thinks everyone should just accept he's not a lunatic with a deadly weapon.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Again, I disagree, a firearm is not like a motorcycle, or car, or armchair or any other inanimate object, a firearm is a weapon, while other objects can be used as improvised weapons, they are not designed as weapons. It is not the same as owning anything else, if a nation arms it armies with motorcylces and no guns, you have no need to worry, if your local gang decks itself out with a nice kitchen, there's not much reason to worry.


This is exactly where the discussion confusion lies.


Although originally designed as a weapon---millions of people receive great joy out of using them as a tool or sport equipment (throwing hunters under this category here as well).


There are historical incidents where technology designed for negative use has seen a shift to non-negative uses. This IS the goal of gun enthusiast.


Gun enthusiast become a bit annoyed when those opposed come out of the woodwork every time there is a mass-media exposure of gun related negativities. Especially with claims that stricter gun laws will solve the problems and everything will be ok.


Personally I don't really stand to far on either side, a good solution is not that simple.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is exactly where the discussion confusion lies.


Although originally designed as a weapon---millions of people receive great joy out of using them as a tool or sport equipment (throwing hunters under this category here as well).


There are historical incidents where technology designed for negative use has seen a shift to non-negative uses. This IS the goal of gun enthusiast.


Gun enthusiast become a bit annoyed when those opposed come out of the woodwork every time there is a mass-media exposure of gun related negativities. Especially with claims that stricter gun laws will solve the problems and everything will be ok.


Personally I don't really stand to far on either side, a good solution is not that simple.
That may be so, but surely most responsible owners must realise that parading a weapon around is not the way to go.

For example, one of the first principles of gun safety is never to point a weapon at something you don't intend to kill, merely carrying around a weapon implies that you intend to kill something nearby, otherwise there's no need for it to be on your person.

My family comes from the country, I've know gamekeepers with shotguns, they've always been responsible owners and never felt the need to take their gun to the shops, if anything, OC advocates are damaging the image of most gun owners by being complete dicks, they may think they're john waynes, but we all fear they'll act like john waynes, we don't live in the wild west anymore, most of the myths of which weren't reality.

But I am commenting as someone outside of the US, but we all look at the US, and wonder, wtf?
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I find people in areas where there is likely to be guns are less confrontational, and more likely to back down. They are more respectful of other people's personal space. I have never had anyone bother me in Texas, nor am I keen to bother anyone there. Same in gang infested areas, people would rather de-escalate situations. I actually find people in Switzerland are more likely to get in your face, but don't worry, I won't shoot them.
The appropriate term is fear, not respect.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The appropriate term is fear, not respect.
Not really what I experience. In fact, people there are extremely friendly and quite open. I don't know if you've ever been to such places. They'll tell you their whole life story within minutes of meeting them.


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With a sample of merely 5000 respondents it seems difficult to claim they're representative, nor do I remember having seen such a claim in the wiki article. And yet he does exactly that by extrapolating them to the fulle 350 million.

Additionally, it seems every "use" was counted, including showing them in a simple argument to quelch the possibility of a fistfight. For one I would love to see how it was determined that otherwise a fight would have resulted. Plus imagine what might happen if everybody was armed: Suddenly the threat would no longer work, perhaps even result in a shooting that would otherwise at worst have turned into a brawl.
Could be. But in reality, the only real number of importance is a case of 1. The situation with the shopkeeper I mentioned earlier did not result in any death nor injury. I think that was the only instance they would really care about, and not so much how such surveys are conducted. I think the surveys simply establish that the fact occurs.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The appropriate term is fear, not respect.
Absolutely, I respect people with strong arguments for their positions, but fear people with a gun on their belt.
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Old 16.12.2015, 18:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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That may be so, but surely most responsible owners must realise that parading a weapon around is not the way to go.

For example, one of the first principles of gun safety is never to point a weapon at something you don't intend to kill, merely carrying around a weapon implies that you intend to kill something nearby, otherwise there's no need for it to be on your person.

My family comes from the country, I've know gamekeepers with shotguns, they've always been responsible owners and never felt the need to take their gun to the shops, if anything, OC advocates are damaging the image of most gun owners by being complete dicks, they may think they're john waynes, but we all fear they'll act like john waynes, we don't live in the wild west anymore, most of the myths of which weren't reality.

But I am commenting as someone outside of the US, but we all look at the US, and wonder, wtf?


Absolutely agree!


I was (and others who come to visit CH) absolutely shocked to see teenagers in normal clothes walking around campus with an assault rifle on their back. Definitely would be a no-go in most of the US and all of Canada for example. After I learned about military service, ammo control etc., I was OK with it, but it still catches my eye and shocks me a bit.


Again I think the problem lies is troubled individuals, usually male, usually disenfranchised in some respect. This is their only way to feel powerful, to feel relevant. The gun is unfortunately a simple tool of power. If we could address and fix this, it would be a huge step.


Otherwise, in a situation where such individuals cannot get guns, I truly believe they will find other methods to feed their lack of self worth.
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Old 16.12.2015, 19:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Absolutely agree!

I was (and others who come to visit CH) absolutely shocked to see teenagers in normal clothes walking around campus with an assault rifle on their back. Definitely would be a no-go in most of the US and all of Canada for example. After I learned about military service, ammo control etc., I was OK with it, but it still catches my eye and shocks me a bit.

Again I think the problem lies is troubled individuals, usually male, usually disenfranchised in some respect. This is their only way to feel powerful, to feel relevant. The gun is unfortunately a simple tool of power. If we could address and fix this, it would be a huge step.

Otherwise, in a situation where such individuals cannot get guns, I truly believe they will find other methods to feed their lack of self worth.
I have to admit there are plenty of gun owners in the US who are like overgrown boyscouts who seem to live for the day where they can use their firearm for some heroic purpose. But I don't think these are the problem ones. There are also very responsible people who want their firearms to protect something of theirs for one reason or another. These aren't the problems ones either. The problems ones are those who have psychological problems, or simply have evil intent. Unfortunately, these are the same ones that give reason for the others to own a firearm.
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Old 16.12.2015, 19:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Again, I disagree, a firearm is not like a motorcycle, or car, or armchair or any other inanimate object, a firearm is a weapon, while other objects can be used as improvised weapons, they are not designed as weapons. It is not the same as owning anything else, if a nation arms it armies with motorcylces and no guns, you have no need to worry, if your local gang decks itself out with a nice kitchen, there's not much reason to worry.
you have misunderstood what i was saying.

you said:

"The right to carry a weapon is nothing to do with your enjoyment and fulllment in life"

i disagree and say that the right to own, carry and use a weapon IS something that people enjoy.
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Old 16.12.2015, 19:50
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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For example, one of the first principles of gun safety is never to point a weapon at something you don't intend to kill, merely carrying around a weapon implies that you intend to kill something nearby, otherwise there's no need for it to be on your person.
oh god. this is so full of logical holes where do i begin?

"one of the first principles of gun safety is never to point a weapon at something you don't intend to kill"

yes, this is a safety measure in case of accidental discharge you don't want the business end pointing at something that you don't want shot

"merely carrying around a weapon implies that you intend to kill something nearby"

obviously this doesn't follow from the first sentence, so i assume this is just a patently wrong statement. just to give a counter-example. you can carry a weapon from home to the range to shoot targets with no intention of killing anyone. you can also carry an unloaded weapon which also means you have not the means to kill anyone nearby with it.

most civilians who carry are not intending to kill someone nearby. this statement is just bizarre.

"otherwise there's no need for it to be on your person"

left as an exercise for the reader.
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Old 16.12.2015, 20:03
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I like Americans. I even have a friend who's American.
I think this was humor. If so, I got a chuckle. Thx. 🤓
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Old 16.12.2015, 20:05
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I always thought most sport and competition shooting does use small calibers, but I'm no expert.
Yes. I used .22 and air pellet.
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Old 16.12.2015, 20:07
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oh god. this is so full of logical holes where do i begin?

"one of the first principles of gun safety is never to point a weapon at something you don't intend to kill"

yes, this is a safety measure in case of accidental discharge you don't want the business end pointing at something that you don't want shot

"merely carrying around a weapon implies that you intend to kill something nearby"

obviously this doesn't follow from the first sentence, so i assume this is just a patently wrong statement. just to give a counter-example. you can carry a weapon from home to the range to shoot targets with no intention of killing anyone. you can also carry an unloaded weapon which also means you have not the means to kill anyone nearby with it.

most civilians who carry are not intending to kill someone nearby. this statement is just bizarre.

"otherwise there's no need for it to be on your person"

left as an exercise for the reader.
It's not full of holes, and in a way, you're making my point. Yes, people can be carrying guns to and from points in which they may be used, pretty much the same way I carry my penis around when I want to have sex, it doesn't mean I have the right to flaunt it between points.
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