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  #1261  
Old 16.12.2015, 20:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

My point on gun safety is that most gun owners realise it's a tool to kill things, while there my be fringe cases when someone is carrying their weapon between the gun range and their home, you and I both know that that toting around a semi automatic AR-45 at the local wlamart inspires fear rather than an hopeful optimism in the US constitution.
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  #1262  
Old 16.12.2015, 20:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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For example, one of the first principles of gun safety is never to point a weapon at something you don't intend to kill, merely carrying around a weapon implies that you intend to kill something nearby, otherwise there's no need for it to be on your person.

My family comes from the country, I've know gamekeepers with shotguns, they've always been responsible owners and never felt the need to take their gun to the shops, if anything, OC advocates are damaging the image of most gun owners by being complete dicks, they may think they're john waynes, but we all fear they'll act like john waynes, we don't live in the wild west anymore, most of the myths of which weren't reality.

But I am commenting as someone outside of the US, but we all look at the US, and wonder, wtf?
I would say the highlighted part is absolutely moronic. Below the level of your normal posts.

I agree with the rest (mostly). Although I have never OC'd, I absolutely respect the ones that do it correctly. They are respectful, they educate and they normally carry something just large enough (pistol) to be noticed. It started as a political statement, not as a willy-wave.

The jokers that walk around with hand cannons now...

Buckaroos.
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  #1263  
Old 16.12.2015, 20:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I would say the highlighted part is absolutely moronic. Below the level of your normal posts.

I agree with the rest. Although I have never OC'd, I absolutely respect the ones that do it correctly. They are respectful, they educate and they normally carry something just large enough (pistol) to be noticed. It started as a political statement, not as a willy-wave.

The jokers that walk around with hand cannons now...

Buckaroos.

You might see it as moronic, but I don't see people outside the US carrying weapons in everyday life. It's not a moronic position, it's pragmatic, weapons are a tool designed to injure and kill, to me, there is simply no reason to carry one around unless you have some intent to injure or kill. I'll give you that it's a cultural position, but it's not a dumb position.
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  #1264  
Old 16.12.2015, 20:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I absolutely don't believe that people in the US are fighting for their right to go to shooting ranges and fear for their rights to carry weapons between gun ranges and their home, that's absolute bullshit, cut it out.
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  #1265  
Old 16.12.2015, 20:25
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You might see it as moronic, but I don't see people outside the US carrying weapons in everyday life. It's not a moronic position, it's pragmatic, weapons are a tool designed to injure and kill, to me, there is simply no reason to carry one around unless you have some intent to injure or kill. I'll give you that it's a cultural position, but it's not a dumb position.
Speakers Corner in Hyde Park is the exact same principal as OC. Just because someone gets up on a platform and starts speaking rubbish - do you expect him to automatically espouse the overthrow of the Monarchy? It's exercising the right to free speech ( our first amendment - guess something good came from GB after all!)

OC is no different, but from your framework, it's scary and dangerous. From mine, somewhat patriotic.
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Old 16.12.2015, 20:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Speakers Corner in Hyde Park is the exact same principal as OC. Just because someone gets up on a platform and starts speaking rubbish - do you expect him to automatically espouse the overthrow of the Monarchy? It's exercising the right to free speech ( our first amendment - guess something good came from GB after all!)

OC is no different, but from your framework, it's scary and dangerous. From mine, somewhat patriotic.

A guy in speakers corner can't shoot someone dead when they heckle him. It's not the same at all.
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  #1267  
Old 16.12.2015, 20:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I think it may go towards my position if explain that I see public displays of weapons as a form of oppression rather than freedom.

In my daily life here in Europe, I face little oppression, police carry guns but are rarely seen, I see someone brandishing a weapon, I'm pretty much going to be right in assuming they're up to no good.

Someone made the connection before between gods and guns in the US, and I see it too, maybe I'm paranoid, but in the US there seems to be a growing militia of people of a certain political and religious bent, and while they may think of themselves as rightful patriots, they come acorss as extra judicial executors. I'm free to express my opinions on this board and in real life, but I think some people here would be proud of the fact I wouldn't feel safe expressing those views in Texas.

Last edited by cyrus; 16.12.2015 at 21:00.
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  #1268  
Old 16.12.2015, 21:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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A guy in speakers corner can't shoot someone dead when they heckle him. It's not the same at all.
Yeah dude, it is.

In both cases, a citizen is exercising power. A power which was granted to them by their government. Some people are afraid of this power and will vigorously try to control it.

And I'm sorry, but your assumption that people who carry a gun are automatically out to shoot something is a little extreme (English understatement). But it is illustrative of how we come at this from opposite perspectives.

Last edited by VFR on top; 16.12.2015 at 22:55.
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  #1269  
Old 16.12.2015, 21:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Yeah dude, it is.

In both cases, a citizen is exerting power. A power which was granted to them by their government. Some people are afraid of this power and will vigorously try to control it.

And I'm sorry, but your assumption that people who carry a gun are automatically out to shoot something is a little extreme (English understatement). But it is illustrative of how we come at this from opposite perspectives.
It's not that they are out to shoot someone, it's that they can. In my everyday life I can face a little fisticuffs, not summary execution.
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  #1270  
Old 16.12.2015, 22:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Speaking mostly of the western world, gun controls have clearly shown to have been successful, and while there may be very vocal opponents, no one misses their guns to the same extent that they may miss drink or drugs, and in many ways, in most countries with controls, people are still more able to enjoy aspects of gun culture than they may be legally allowed to enjoy a joint.

When I see someone with a joint, I have zero fear that it's someone about to murder me, but some guy who's proudly carrying a gun in a situation where it's not needed is someone I think is just looking for the right opportunity (in their mind) to use it.

About "When I see someone with a joint, I have zero fear ..." LOL!


The time for you to worry is when you see someone without a joint. You do realise that around 25% of violent crimes are committed by people looking for money to support their habit.
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  #1271  
Old 16.12.2015, 22:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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About "When I see someone with a joint, I have zero fear ..." LOL!


The time for you to worry is when you see someone without a joint. You do realise that around 25% of violent crimes are committed by people looking for money to support their habit.
Source?
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  #1272  
Old 16.12.2015, 22:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

OMG, the druggie argument,

That guy is making a marijauuny cigarret, hide your wallet before he kills us all in a drug frenzy!

Yeah, you make a strong argument (to me) for drug legalisation, but sorry to burst your bubble, most junkies don't have anything near it together to get a gun should they run dry on the sweet highness.

And yeah, druggies addicted to stuff like heroin crack and cocaine do commit crimes looking to support their habit, I don't personally think that that's worth execution. Perhaps you do and we should ponder on the moral implications of that.
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  #1273  
Old 16.12.2015, 22:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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About "When I see someone with a joint, I have zero fear ..." LOL!


The time for you to worry is when you see someone without a joint. You do realise that around 25% of violent crimes are committed by people looking for money to support their habit.
I mean , some guy shooting up isn't going to shoot you, how can you "LOL" that unless you're the problem? That's exactly the point I'm making, some idiot with a pre conceived notion on some other section of society actually owning a gun and having the dispotion to get to use it is a major danger.

I'm sure you think you sound rational, but I would never, ever, trust you with a gun.
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  #1274  
Old 17.12.2015, 00:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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About "When I see someone with a joint, I have zero fear ..." LOL!


The time for you to worry is when you see someone without a joint. You do realise that around 25% of violent crimes are committed by people looking for money to support their habit.
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Source?


https://ncadd.org/about-addiction/al...rugs-and-crime
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  #1275  
Old 17.12.2015, 01:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I mean , some guy shooting up isn't going to shoot you, how can you "LOL" that unless you're the problem? That's exactly the point I'm making, some idiot with a pre conceived notion on some other section of society actually owning a gun and having the dispotion to get to use it is a major danger.

I'm sure you think you sound rational, but I would never, ever, trust you with a gun.

Never had a gun and never wanted one but that does not mean I support banning guns.

Stating I am not rational is no substitute for logical argument.
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Old 17.12.2015, 01:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Absolutely, I respect people with strong arguments for their positions, but fear people with a gun on their belt.


Some people fear spiders or the dark but such irrational fears are no substitute for logical arguments!
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  #1277  
Old 17.12.2015, 01:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

From your link:
"80% of offenders abuse drugs or alcohol"

Define "abuse", does that mean getting drunk? Drunk by what degree?

Depending on their definition I'm perfectly sure it's easy to have it apply to at least 60% of the grownup population (over their entire life span of course). Lies, damned lies and statistics.
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Old 17.12.2015, 01:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You might see it as moronic, but I don't see people outside the US carrying weapons in everyday life. It's not a moronic position, it's pragmatic, weapons are a tool designed to injure and kill, to me, there is simply no reason to carry one around unless you have some intent to injure or kill. I'll give you that it's a cultural position, but it's not a dumb position.

About "You might see it as moronic, but I don't see people outside the US carrying weapons in everyday life". You have never been to the Middle East or the interesting parts of Africa then?
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  #1279  
Old 17.12.2015, 02:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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From your link:
"80% of offenders abuse drugs or alcohol"

Define "abuse", does that mean getting drunk? Drunk by what degree?

Depending on their definition I'm perfectly sure it's easy to have it apply to at least 60% of the grownup population (over their entire life span of course). Lies, damned lies and statistics.


I wrote "around 25% of violent crimes are committed by people looking for money to support their habit"
I was asked for a source and provided that link.


The ""80% of offenders abuse drugs or alcohol" is not relevant to my argument.


Would have been more relevant had you quoted "Approximately 60% of individuals arrested for most types of crimes test positive for illegal drugs at arrest" I assume alcohol was not classed as an illegal drug?
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  #1280  
Old 17.12.2015, 02:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Absolutely agree!


I was (and others who come to visit CH) absolutely shocked to see teenagers in normal clothes walking around campus with an assault rifle on their back. Definitely would be a no-go in most of the US and all of Canada for example. After I learned about military service, ammo control etc., I was OK with it, but it still catches my eye and shocks me a bit.


Again I think the problem lies is troubled individuals, usually male, usually disenfranchised in some respect. This is their only way to feel powerful, to feel relevant. The gun is unfortunately a simple tool of power. If we could address and fix this, it would be a huge step.


Otherwise, in a situation where such individuals cannot get guns, I truly believe they will find other methods to feed their lack of self worth.
In your last paragraph: why do you believe this when the evidence from "gun control countries" indicates the opposite?
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