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  #1281  
Old 17.12.2015, 02:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

While that link certainly shows the problem, I fail to see how it can back up a lethal form of self defence.
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  #1282  
Old 17.12.2015, 04:13
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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While that link certainly shows the problem, I fail to see how it can back up a lethal form of self defence.

Not only that, but the fact you quoted this article in reference to my statement on someone smoking a joint displays a massive problem on how drugs in our society are perceived and understood.

My statement on how you wont face danger from some random dude smoking a joint still stands, while you've definitely shown a cycle of drug abuse in crime, you've failed to show that shooting them dead with a gun is a rational or civilised way to go.

Certainly allowing access to weapons to desperate individuals creates problems, but one that is easy countered by gun controls, denying casual access to guns to junkies could be considered one of the major pros for gun control. I don't want to lump weed smokers and heroin addicts in the same category, but I can pretty much safely say that most junkies would be put off buying a gun by anything that might make anything simpler than just buying one. Junkies are not organised criminals,

I won't deny that hardened criminals still have access to guns in any situation where they are controlled, but I will state that where controls do exist, criminals sure seem a lot more careful about using guns on the general populace for fear of severe recriminations.

I don't want to say that as a society we tolerate crime, but the police are far less bothered by underground infighting than the are about random muggings involving death.

I don't encounter low level criminality anymore, I'm grown up and mature, but growing up in the UK it always seemed to me that crime on a general level was dealt with, but any crime involving a gun was dealt with far more severely, While I thought myself a bit of an outlaw for buying dope and the occasional coke and psychadelics, I always realised that these things were fundamentaly different from anything involving a gun. Getting drugs is about getting ****ed for the weekend, looking for a gun means you mean someone harm.

We do get to a greater problem where drugs are so in demand an entire illegal industry thrives on it, but that industry is not guns, it is drugs, guns are used in the industry, but if you think that banning guns is going to cause an illegal gun trade to the level of weed and coke trafficking, you are completely deluded, no one really gives that much of a shit about guns for recreational use.
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  #1283  
Old 17.12.2015, 08:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Can I just chime in with a "Big up yourself, America" as no one has shot lots of people in days!
Well done you all! Who needs gun regulation with theses kinds of achievments?

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  #1284  
Old 17.12.2015, 10:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Sure there is a strong linkage between drugs and shootings.

There is a strong linkage between psychiatric problems and random mass shootings, and therefore drugs play a part in that linkage. Many shooters have been known to have been prescribed psychotropic drug treatment at one point or another. And some whose psychiatric problems may never have been detected and diagnosed, so have never been prescribed pharmaceutical drugs. Yet many such people have been known to self-medicate through illicit recreational drugs.

Also, a large number of shootings that occur have been around the illicit drug trade. Common cases cited are drug deals that go wrong, debts, and fighting for drug distribution channels and territories. Just look at all the deaths taking place in Mexico. These are parts of an ongoing drug war between gangs.
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  #1285  
Old 17.12.2015, 10:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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In your last paragraph: why do you believe this when the evidence from "gun control countries" indicates the opposite?


Last paragraph as in finding methods?


Total speculation, (but I do have a history of always being right :P).


Again, with my beliefs on the topic of mental health and extreme attention acts (for lack of better term), there is a strong lack of definite classification and definition (psychology is still quite a soft science). So it's easy to lump together a bunch who use guns because it's the easiest connection to make and understand (the average person like feeling smart and making connections).


If at some point we can define the psychology of such individuals with some sort of test with trivial results, I feel like we'd see a lot of 'incidents' where guns and before not associated together, having similar results.


A few examples: fertilizer bombings, letter bombings, suicidal pilots...


Again, just speculation for the sake of discussion, but along the lines of: We can eliminate Beer related drunk driving accidents by banning beer!
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  #1286  
Old 17.12.2015, 11:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Not really what I experience. In fact, people there are extremely friendly and quite open. I don't know if you've ever been to such places. They'll tell you their whole life story within minutes of meeting them.
No I've never visitex Texas. I probably never will as I resent being treated the same way a criminal is when arrested (fingerprints and all).

However considering this map friendliness and opennes don't keep the citizens from killing each other at an increased rate. Note how the read areas coincide with pro-gun states?




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Could be. But in reality, the only real number of importance is a case of 1. The situation with the shopkeeper I mentioned earlier did not result in any death nor injury. I think that was the only instance they would really care about, and not so much how such surveys are conducted. I think the surveys simply establish that the fact occurs.
So a single positive case justifies thousands of deaths. I'm sure that makes sense. Somehow.

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Again, just speculation for the sake of discussion, but along the lines of: We can eliminate Beer related drunk driving accidents by banning beer!
I think "elimination" is a bit too strong, but a reduction would certainly result. By the same logic weapon control (not a ban) would have a positive long-term effect in the form of fewer gun deaths.
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  #1287  
Old 17.12.2015, 11:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )



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  #1288  
Old 17.12.2015, 11:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No I've never visitex Texas. I probably never will as I resent being treated the same way a criminal is when arrested (fingerprints and all).

However considering this map friendliness and opennes don't keep the citizens from killing each other at an increased rate. Note how the read areas coincide with pro-gun states?

Many of those people are some of the warmest people I've ever met on earth.

I think that map may indicate more the effectiveness of law enforcement then the level of their friendliness. Those are rural areas. And here lies one of the biggest perception gaps between Europe and the US. In Europe, you have concentrations of population where you can rely on law enforcement to provide a comfortable degree of protection. Not so in the US. In fact, some of the most active proponents of gun ownership in many of these US areas are from law enforcement themselves. You'll hear police chiefs advising people to protect themselves. Its basically an admission that they cannot protect everybody all the time. It doesn't really make sense to apply Zuerich sensibilities to gun control to some of these rural areas. Its not as civilized and developed. Get it yet?


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So a single positive case justifies thousands of deaths. I'm sure that makes sense. Somehow.
For any particular gun owner, yes, they are only concerned about their own instance.
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  #1289  
Old 17.12.2015, 12:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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.....

I think "elimination" is a bit too strong, but a reduction would certainly result. By the same logic weapon control (not a ban) would have a positive long-term effect in the form of fewer gun deaths.


Agreed, as I mentioned above I'm not on the far side of either argument, but I do oppose the costly knee-jerk approach of quick bandaid fixes right after an incident when many are emotional and arm-chair activists.


I'm always a supporter of root-cause solutions, which, if done properly, would not only reduce gun deaths but also many other mental-illness related tragedies as well.


Do I have a good solution ATM? No, I'm not the expert on the topic, but I hope those who are, are working together to tackle this issue.
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  #1290  
Old 17.12.2015, 15:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Can I just chime in with a "Big up yourself, America" as no one has shot lots of people in days!
Well done you all! Who needs gun regulation with theses kinds of achievments?
I actually thought your EF comments were making a difference.
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  #1291  
Old 17.12.2015, 16:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Last paragraph as in finding methods?


Total speculation, (but I do have a history of always being right :P).


Again, with my beliefs on the topic of mental health and extreme attention acts (for lack of better term), there is a strong lack of definite classification and definition (psychology is still quite a soft science). So it's easy to lump together a bunch who use guns because it's the easiest connection to make and understand (the average person like feeling smart and making connections).


If at some point we can define the psychology of such individuals with some sort of test with trivial results, I feel like we'd see a lot of 'incidents' where guns and before not associated together, having similar results.


A few examples: fertilizer bombings, letter bombings, suicidal pilots...


Again, just speculation for the sake of discussion, but along the lines of: We can eliminate Beer related drunk driving accidents by banning beer!
My point was simple: countries that have enacted gun control have observed reductions in violent deaths, i.e. deaths by firearms have not been replaced by deaths by other means. Ergo, gun control saves lives. Very simple.
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Old 17.12.2015, 16:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

One tries.

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I actually thought your EF comments were making a difference.
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  #1293  
Old 17.12.2015, 17:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You're still getting it wrong. You keep talking about Phos and your perception of his opinion, but Phos is telling you facts, which is the reality of the situation and the laws. You're not up against Phos' opinion, your opinion is up against the reality of the situation. Phos is the straw man in your argument.

Seems many people have problems differentiating between" WHAT IS" and what, according to their opinion, "should be".
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Old 17.12.2015, 17:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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My point was simple: countries that have enacted gun control have observed reductions in violent deaths, i.e. deaths by firearms have not been replaced by deaths by other means. Ergo, gun control saves lives. Very simple.


I realize your point, but I think you missed my point. It's not that simple at all.


There are different cultures, values, mentalities in different countries. Because of this, different mental states will bring different problems. I feel that the inherent issues with gun deaths is not due to guns, but rather mental instability--a product of American culture and upbringing.


Canada is also different, but very similar in mentality, values, culture as the US and is a great example where applying stricter gun laws (similar to some that are being discussed in the US right now) have had no effect, and cost billions of tax dollars.


I am not against gun laws, but I am definitely against the situation being described and treated as 'very simple'.
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Old 17.12.2015, 18:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Seems many people have problems differentiating between" WHAT IS" and what, according to their opinion, "should be".
Ah, that may be a sign of giftedness.
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  #1296  
Old 18.12.2015, 09:42
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I realize your point, but I think you missed my point. It's not that simple at all.
Please refer to Enaj's post just above yours.
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  #1297  
Old 18.12.2015, 10:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No I've never visitex Texas. I probably never will as I resent being treated the same way a criminal is when arrested (fingerprints and all).

I've been to Texas many times, and seen the big cities as well as the deep sticks. I even walked through an area in Houston of which I was later told "you shouldn't have gone there, it's not safe". To be honest I didn't feel entirely comfortable there but it wasn't that bad. Even the panhandlers don't just do the give me a dollar routine but try some banter and levity. I've seen far more depressing and awful places, in Philadelphia for example. I don't think that overall Texas is less safe than any other US state.

I also got stopped by the police once. Actually for doing someting mildly idiotic while driving. They were even polite, or at least polite in a policey sort of way. We chatted about all sorts of things including the differences between Texas and Europe and they wanted to know about the part of Germany where one of their ancestors was from. They didn't shoot, handcuff, search or fingerprint me and they let me off with a friendly verbal warning not to do that again.
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Old 18.12.2015, 10:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Note how the red areas coincide with pro-gun states?
Not really, as the whole of NE is blue to dark blue, and those are pro-gun states (except perhaps for MA).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_la...tates_by_state

I know lots of people there, including ex-roomates, etc. who have one or more guns.

Tom
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Old 18.12.2015, 11:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Please refer to Enaj's post just above yours.


It goes both ways!


I at least like to present my opinion to show it is an opinion, backed with my personal observations (I think, I believe, If we could address, Personally....). These singular personal opinions are even have a disclaimer saying I'm not an experts and it's not my position to make absolute statements.


The one fact that I did refer to was a situation where gun control laws were implements, and showed minimal to no effect after costing an exorbitant amount of money.


Your claim that "if worked in one country it would simply work in every country" definitely would fit under Enaj's "what should be" rather than "what is".
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Old 18.12.2015, 11:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I've been to Texas many times, and seen the big cities as well as the deep sticks. I even walked through an area in Houston of which I was later told "you shouldn't have gone there, it's not safe". To be honest I didn't feel entirely comfortable there but it wasn't that bad. Even the panhandlers don't just do the give me a dollar routine but try some banter and levity. I've seen far more depressing and awful places, in Philadelphia for example. I don't think that overall Texas is less safe than any other US state.

I also got stopped by the police once. Actually for doing someting mildly idiotic while driving. They were even polite, or at least polite in a policey sort of way. We chatted about all sorts of things including the differences between Texas and Europe and they wanted to know about the part of Germany where one of their ancestors was from. They didn't shoot, handcuff, search or fingerprint me and they let me off with a friendly verbal warning not to do that again.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." -Mark Twain
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