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  #1481  
Old 13.06.2016, 10:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is a highly nuanced rebuttal to explain a very specific point. Pls allow me to add a few others which have not been mentioned:

1...<snip>...7
Fully agree, except for point 7. I don't know why you posted as a reply to my post, though; your content has nothing to do with the subject I posted on.
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@22yards your posts didn't read well - almost intimating that "who cares - they're gays"
As I've stated several times, that is absolutely not the case. Anyone who takes the time to read my posts without pre-conceived, ready-to-be-released-at-the-slightest-(non-existent)-provocation outrage can see that.
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Old 13.06.2016, 10:29
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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As I've stated several times, that is absolutely not the case. Anyone who takes the time to read my posts without pre-conceived, ready-to-be-released-at-the-slightest-(non-existent)-provocation outrage can see that.
As I said - it is just how some of your posts read.

TBH I am surprised it hasn't been suggested that this wouldn't have happened if Gays were banned, Muslims were banned, clubs were banned, Orlando was banned, music was banned and dancing was banned. Just don't ban assault rifles because we need them.
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  #1483  
Old 13.06.2016, 10:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Without wishing to be flippant, I wonder whether he was in the closet himself. His father appears to be a big cheese in the expat Afghani community with his own Youtube channel, so not exactly someone who would embrace a gay son.



Its hack EF psychology at its best, but an internet bride, subsequent violence towards his ex wife, choice of target etc.. it does seem to fit a pattern of someone who was at war with himself.
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Old 13.06.2016, 10:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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TBH I am surprised it hasn't been suggested that this wouldn't have happened if Gays were banned, Muslims were banned, clubs were banned, Orlando was banned, music was banned and dancing was banned. Just don't ban assault rifles because we need them.
That reads well.














Further proof that most people now need emoticons to understand text. I wonder how they coped in the days of ye olde books and magazines.
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  #1485  
Old 13.06.2016, 10:36
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Exactly, the problem is that Americans have too many guns.

The implementation of the gun ban in Australia wasn't quite as you describe it. Following a similar mass shooting, the then-Prime Minister forced through legislation which allowed for buy-back of guns followed by an amnesty period during which guns could be surrendered without penalty.
But I assume there was broad support in society for the whole thing?
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Old 13.06.2016, 10:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Without wishing to be flippant, I wonder whether he was in the closet himself. His father appears to be a big cheese in the expat Afghani community with his own Youtube channel, so not exactly someone who would embrace a gay son.



Its hack EF psychology at its best, but an internet bride, subsequent violence towards his ex wife, choice of target etc.. it does seem to fit a pattern of someone who was as much at war with himself.
My gaydar says 99% closeted gay.
Then again, my gaydar thinks the same about most middle Eastern men.
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  #1487  
Old 13.06.2016, 10:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Fully agree, except for point 7. I don't know why you posted as a reply to my post, though; your content has nothing to do with the subject I posted on.

As I've stated several times, that is absolutely not the case. Anyone who takes the time to read my posts without pre-conceived, ready-to-be-released-at-the-slightest-(non-existent)-provocation outrage can see that.
I could have attached it to any of the other oft repeated posts since the event happened. My ultimate point is that this appears to be an act of terror and although access to guns is part of the dialogue, it is only a part. Lots of meat on this one yet the EF would rather focus on your homophobic (seemingly) post.

Oh, and I forgot to mention religious intolerance. It was reported he was enraged because two men were kissing in front of his child, hence the LGBT connection...

But, like any forum - it will go where it wants to. I'm off to get coffee and start my Monday.




ps: I am busting your balls a little. It really came across badly. I'm sure there was no intent, but even I did a double take last night, especially since it came from you. (that's a compliment).
I would just stop digging and move on. (that's another dick punch)
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  #1488  
Old 13.06.2016, 10:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sigh. Here we go again. A strict gun ban has worked exceptionally well to reduce gun deaths significantly in Australia, and other examples also exist elsewhere. Anyone who argues that reducing the number of guns wouldn't result in a reduction of shooting incidents (especially of innocent members of the public) is simply ignoring facts and spreading falsehoods.


Sigh here we go again.... Oz specific results.

firearm related suicides continued to fall at the same rate as the previous years since the gun ban in 1996 though non firearm suicides increased then declined.

Gun related homicides continued to fall as they had been for many years since 1986 and there was no significant drop after the 1996 ban, in fact it increased massively for 2 years then continued the downward trend.

Armed robbery rates fell after the gun ban?

Nope it massively increased and doubled for many years.. it took 11 years for the level of armed robbery to drop below the pre 1996 ban.. it dropped to the 1995 level.

Gun control only works when only law abiding people are those holding the guns

is interesting that the gun ban and amnesty reduced the circulation of guns only by about a fifth but cut the number of registered firearm holding house holds in half.

UK banned the majority of guns in 97, the number of firearm offence incidents massively increased and only showed a decrease around 2011. 2015 showed a 10% increase in firearm crime.
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Old 13.06.2016, 10:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Without wishing to be flippant, I wonder whether he was in the closet himself.
I had the same thought.

Aside from that: what a sick mind. Awful. I'm leaning towards believing that the "saw two men kissing" rather than the "supports IS" was the trigger. So you see an act of love between two people and go on to shoot 50 people? Gosh.

Also, though I'm pro gun control, this guy was working for a security firm, had a license to obtain weapons legally and needed them for his job. No law could have prevented that.
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  #1490  
Old 13.06.2016, 11:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But I assume there was broad support in society for the whole thing?
From memory (although I wasn't living there at the time), there was (of course) enormous sympathy for the victims of the Port Arthur massacre* at the time, and the Prime Minister seized on the opportunity to capitalize on the "national mood". Certainly there were objections to the ban, but the majority of Australians were in support of gun control.

The interesting thing is that polls show that the majority of Americans also support strict gun control, but massively powerful gun lobby groups like the NRA are disproportionally loud and influential.



* Martin Bryant killed 35 people that day. Omar Mateen has just beaten that "record". Yay USA. **

** Emoticon inserted for obvious reasons.

Last edited by 22 yards; 13.06.2016 at 11:13. Reason: Info about the record
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  #1491  
Old 13.06.2016, 11:04
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Sigh here we go again.... Oz specific results.

firearm related suicides continued to fall at the same rate as the previous years since the gun ban in 1996 though non firearm suicides increased then declined.

Gun related homicides continued to fall as they had been for many years since 1986 and there was no significant drop after the 1996 ban, in fact it increased massively for 2 years then continued the downward trend.

Armed robbery rates fell after the gun ban?

Nope it massively increased and doubled for many years.. it took 11 years for the level of armed robbery to drop below the pre 1996 ban.. it dropped to the 1995 level.

Gun control only works when only law abiding people are those holding the guns

is interesting that the gun ban and amnesty reduced the circulation of guns only by about a fifth but cut the number of registered firearm holding house holds in half.

UK banned the majority of guns in 97, the number of firearm offence incidents massively increased and only showed a decrease around 2011. 2015 showed a 10% increase in firearm crime.
As always, statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you (or, yes, I) want. I've written thousands of words on this topic here already and I'm not going to start all over again. Suffice to say that in no country anywhere in the world are guns solely in the hands of law-abiding people; also that it is an indisputable truth that in the absence of guns, gun crime is impossible.
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Old 13.06.2016, 11:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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As always, statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you (or, yes, I) want. I've written thousands of words on this topic here already and I'm not going to start all over again. Suffice to say that in no country anywhere in the world are guns solely in the hands of law-abiding people; also that it is an indisputable truth that in the absence of guns, gun crime is impossible.
Agreed, but regardless, you can't prevent further heinous atrocities as people with ill-intend will always find a way to hurt others. This time it was a gun, it could have easily been a bus plowing through a market or a fire in a crowded area. Sadly, death is certain, life is not and you'll never know when you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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  #1493  
Old 13.06.2016, 11:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Agreed, but regardless, you can't prevent further heinous atrocities as people with ill-intend will always find a way to hurt others. This time it was a gun, it could have easily been a bus plowing through a market or a fire in a crowded area. Sadly, death is certain, life is not and you'll never know when you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Even if gun control were to prevent the stupid accidental deaths (like the toddlers who shoot their own mothers seemingly on a monthly basis), wouldn't that be a win?
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  #1494  
Old 13.06.2016, 11:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Agreed, but regardless, you can't prevent further heinous atrocities as people with ill-intend will always find a way to hurt others. This time it was a gun, it could have easily been a bus plowing through a market or a fire in a crowded area. Sadly, death is certain, life is not and you'll never know when you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.
True...but what if the US had a referendum on the subject? Why not put it to the people?
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Old 13.06.2016, 11:13
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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rob1: What about the other side of the coin? If the argument against a gun ban is that "the good guys won't be able to defend themselves" then where were these armed good guys in Orlando?


As far as I can tell the armed good guys (other than the post facto intervention of the security forces) aren't having any restraining effect.


Have a look at http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orl...hooter-n590496


Amongst other things consider the following train of thought:


1) the guy worked in Security and had access to guns.
2) the guy was apparently bonkers.
3) Nobody apparently felt that the above two points were a dangerous combination.


an intervention at any one of the above three points might well have made a difference.
Not arguing with you on that as I don't believe having armed carry (as opposed to gun owning.. there is a massive difference) would have prevented this incident in the slightest. rare someone goes clubbing with a concealed carry I would say?

This incident is the classic swiss cheese model (look it up) and could easily have been prevented.
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Maybe we could just start with restricting sales and ensuring everybody that buys them has a licence, like with cars. Also, some sort of check that the buyer isn't on a terrorist watchlist, like with getting on a plane. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
in ch many firearms don't need a licence. Anyone * can walk into a gun shop and walk out with a single action rifle with just an ID. Semi automatic needs a licence.

*except those that are not allowed by law.. balkan states, Pakistan etc.

In US most states require background checks if not all.. I don't know.

Florida has a 2 tier system. If you have completed a concealed carry course you can walk in and walk out, if not you need to wait 5 days and have a background check.

CH has a very low rate of firearm related incidents but has a large number of firearms per head. 3rd or 4th in world I think? In my view its all down to education and respect for weapons.. oh and a lack of gang banging homies in da hood.
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Old 13.06.2016, 11:13
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True...but what if the US had a referendum on the subject? Why not put it to the people?
Nah, guns are good...people are idiots. Anybody with a nefarious plan can find numerous ways to kill others.

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Even if gun control were to prevent the stupid accidental deaths (like the toddlers who shoot their own mothers seemingly on a monthly basis), wouldn't that be a win?
In my opinion, that is a grey area. The media likes the attention such story gets. How about the numerous times, when a gun actually saved somebody life?
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  #1497  
Old 13.06.2016, 11:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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True...but what if the US had a referendum on the subject? Why not put it to the people?


AFAIK the constitution has no mechanism for a referendum, so the first thing to be done would be to modify the constitution. Probably not going to happen.


To me it is a fairly simple issue, yet again a wacko with a gun has taken lives. What is easier to achieve: limit the number of wackos, or limit their access to guns?
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Old 13.06.2016, 11:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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True...but what if the US had a referendum on the subject? Why not put it to the people?
There is no provison for referendums at the federal level in the US -- another shortcoming of the US Constitution. However, about half the states allow referendums. If enough states (two thirds, I think) request it, a constitutional convention can be called which could (after decades of toing and froing) produce a change in the Constitution. But maybe something that doesn't require constitutional change would be possible.

Part of the problem is putting the referendum(s) in place -- the aforementioned lobby groups would do their utmost to ensure the vote never happens.

ETA JagWaugh got there before me...
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Old 13.06.2016, 11:22
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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What is easier to achieve: limit the number of wackos, or limit their access to guns?
How do you limit the number of wackos?

Build a wall?
Implement wacko testing at birth?
Expel/exterminate all (suspected) wackos?
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Old 13.06.2016, 11:24
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

OK I don't necessarily want this to lead to a pro-gun-anti-gun discussion, but I do have a question (I'm sure I'm not the first one to ask): in Switzerland, most men/families have at least one gun in the house, if they completed military service anyway. Shooting clubs are also quite popular here. An ex of mine was an avid shooter and had several guns in his home, openly on display, but this for me was not unusual in any way.
Yet shootings are quite rare and if they happen, they are normally confined to single incidents within the family or close circle of acquaintances of some sort rather than seemingly random shooting sprees (exception: Zug in 2001).

So clearly, access to weapon is not the (only) problem - which doesn't mean that restricting access wouldn't help somewhat, though it might just be fighting symptoms rather than causes. There must be something else though. So what distinguishes Swiss culture, where gun violence (at least in the sense of mass murder) is quite rare from other cultures, where it seems to be a quite regular occurrence? I really don't know and really don't understand. By now, even I have trouble looking at this as a "coincidence" and "independent of social setting/culture"
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