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  #1661  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:35
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again, we need to know how many of the 103 + bystanders were actually carrying a gun. gay club = democrats = anti gun. so no guns there, and no some obscure gay gun club is not gonna change that assumption.
1 off duty cop working as security who indeed fire back.

Are you going to say "it could have been worse?"

+ 2 uniformed btw as he was getting in thr club and they Did not stop him.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 14.06.2016 at 15:42. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #1662  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The evidence that strongly points to Mateen being deep in the closet, and that his motive for the muders was internalised homophobia associated with his own homosexuality and his inability to express it for fear of rejection by his family -- i.e. the mounting evidence:

- That Omar Mateen was not religious
- That he had no affiliation with Afghanistan, his "country of origin" (having never visited there)
- That Mateen's ex-wife reported that he was mentally unstable and violent (an opinion also offered by ex-co-workers)
- That he had asked a fellow (male) student out on a date
- That Mateen had been seen clubbing at Pulse a dozen times or more
- That he had been a frequent user of Jack'd, a gay dating app.

Not an "Islamic terrorist attack".
Sure, but if his main insecurity was rejection by his family, this would most likely be down to their Islamic culture which doesn't accept homosexuality.
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  #1663  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:43
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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yes, and that did not happen with mateen which is ridiculous.
Thank you. To me, this is the crux of the matter and where there's a chance to make a change that would be acceptable to all sides concerned.

Another question, and I honestly don't know the answer to this one...

When someone is put on a no-fly list, are they formally made aware of it?

Trying to get the process in a row in my mind here, and thinking, if someone is under surveillance, but hasn't been questioned yet, at what point are they put on a no-fly list?
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  #1664  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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1 off duty cop working as security who indeed fire back.

Are you going to say "it could have been worse?"

+ 2 uniformed btw as he was getting in thr club and they Did not stop him.
no civilians though?
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  #1665  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:50
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no civilians though?
Seems not. But doesnt' matter. 3 trained shooters reacted to it
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  #1666  
Old 14.06.2016, 15:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Thank you. To me, this is the crux of the matter and where there's a chance to make a change that would be acceptable to all sides concerned.

Another question, and I honestly don't know the answer to this one...

When someone is put on a no-fly list, are they formally made aware of it?

Trying to get the process in a row in my mind here, and thinking, if someone is under surveillance, but hasn't been questioned yet, at what point are they put on a no-fly list?


I suspect that the exact criteria are not publicly known, but according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List


the GAO pointed out in 2010 that at least some of these people can purchase guns.


That is scary, very, very scary.
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  #1667  
Old 14.06.2016, 16:15
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

y
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I suspect that the exact criteria are not publicly known, but according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List


the GAO pointed out in 2010 that at least some of these people can purchase guns.


That is scary, very, very scary.
Thanks for that. Very, very informative.

A few years ago, we had a client who was a false positive. More info was sent, but it turned out the client had both the same name and same date of birth as someone on the watch list. That one took over 2 months to resolve.

But the paragraph...Weapons purchases by listed persons...makes interesting reading.
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  #1668  
Old 14.06.2016, 16:22
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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y
Thanks for that. Very, very informative.

A few years ago, we had a client who was a false positive. More info was sent, but it turned out the client had both the same name and same date of birth as someone on the watch list. That one took over 2 months to resolve.

But the paragraph...Weapons purchases by listed persons...makes interesting reading.


Particularly that closing that hole (which would seem to be a trivially sensible course of action) hasn't happened because of what would appear to be political infighting.


But Kinder schockolade, Pit bulls, and Click Clacks are safely regulated, so things could be worse.
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  #1669  
Old 14.06.2016, 16:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Lets say that no matter how inclusive we make our society and how we interact with other societies there will always be an element of hatred from some sections to another. We don't all agree on all topics on EF - so no chance of it happening at a country/international level.

That means we have a motive.

Now lets look at opportunity. If motive will always exist we have to minimize opportunity. This can be done by monitoring those we know with motive, making it harder for them to carry out an attack. Control on movement for example.

And finally we have means. If after best efforts to control opportunity one still arises it is preferable for the means to be as ineffectual as possible.

Pulling together the Paris attacks required a high level of organization, secrecy and careful planning to bring it all together. Orlando less so.

We won't ever stop the attacks - but perhaps reducing the opportunities and the means might be a good start.
What you seem to suggest here is utter control (and gosh you're not alone with that) and it seems to me, this path is more and more proven to be absolutely useless (except to governements controlling the populace). And who decides who can control whom? Those we know with motive? Who would that be?! Control on movement? As far as I'm informed one can't even walk down to the shops in England anymore without being on "candid" camera all the way. You might not mind that but we even take google to court for publishing too many details on street-view
The more you shout for security and control, the more you constrain yourself, how would anybody want that I keep wondering.
How long will I be a good girl, without motive? Until this post goes out, maybe? Or until I have my next dinner with some moslem friends?
This call for control and security delivered by governement and police scare me even more than the attacks that happened lately as they will have a much bigger impact on our daily life. And have you noticed that it's always "the others" that should be controlled? Except maybe blueangel, she's from the first generation of those who demand to be controlled.
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  #1670  
Old 14.06.2016, 17:02
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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What you seem to suggest here is utter control (and gosh you're not alone with that) and it seems to me, this path is more and more proven to be absolutely useless (except to governements controlling the populace). And who decides who can control whom? Those we know with motive? Who would that be?! Control on movement? As far as I'm informed one can't even walk down to the shops in England anymore without being on "candid" camera all the way. You might not mind that but we even take google to court for publishing too many details on street-view
The more you shout for security and control, the more you constrain yourself, how would anybody want that I keep wondering.
For example Monteen was on the no-fly list - which by reckoning is a limitation on movement.

There was, until Schengen, a control of movement in Europe. But just to clear things up, Schengen is a good thing

It is about using intelligence intelligently - and making best possible efforts to minimize opportunity and means.

Last edited by dodgyken; 14.06.2016 at 17:16.
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  #1671  
Old 14.06.2016, 17:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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For example Monteen was on the no-fly list - which by reckoning is a limitation on movement.

There was, until Schengen, a control of movement in Europe. But just to clear Schengen is a good thing

It is about using intelligence intelligently - and making best possible efforts to minimize opportunity and means.


Umm, "just to clear Schengen" or "just to be clear Schengen"
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  #1672  
Old 14.06.2016, 17:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Umm, "just to clear Schengen" or "just to be clear Schengen"
Oh, can we now also clear Schengen? Wow, the possibilities!
Thanks, JagWaugh.
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  #1673  
Old 14.06.2016, 22:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

So, the guardian has this: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ld-her-hostage


Can we agree that this wasn't about Islam, or ISIS, but was, as I said right back at the beginning, a wacko with a gun?
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  #1674  
Old 14.06.2016, 22:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Lets say that no matter how inclusive we make our society and how we interact with other societies there will always be an element of hatred from some sections to another. We don't all agree on all topics on EF - so no chance of it happening at a country/international level.

That means we have a motive.

Now lets look at opportunity. If motive will always exist we have to minimize opportunity. This can be done by monitoring those we know with motive, making it harder for them to carry out an attack. Control on movement for example.

And finally we have means. If after best efforts to control opportunity one still arises it is preferable for the means to be as ineffectual as possible.

Pulling together the Paris attacks required a high level of organization, secrecy and careful planning to bring it all together. Orlando less so.

We won't ever stop the attacks - but perhaps reducing the opportunities and the means might be a good start.
Solve the motive issue by lobotomizing everybody at birth.
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  #1675  
Old 14.06.2016, 23:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So, the guardian has this: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ld-her-hostage


Can we agree that this wasn't about Islam, or ISIS, but was, as I said right back at the beginning, a wacko with a gun?
But the guy did (apparently) pledge allegiance to ISIS.
And the guy was religious. In the article you posted his ex-wife states ''he did follow religion, he did practice and he had his faith''

So to say it's got nothing to do with ISIS or Islam seems rather illogical.

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Omar Mateen was not religious
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  #1676  
Old 14.06.2016, 23:57
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But the guy did (apparently) pledge allegiance to ISIS.
And the guy was religious. In the article you posted his ex-wife states ''he did follow religion, he did practice and he had his faith''

So to say it's got nothing to do with ISIS or Islam seems rather illogical.


Ah, so the fact that he was wacko (His Ex even mentions "Bi Polar") is somehow insignificant?


I was baptised catholic, and raised in the United Church of Canada. If I kill someone while drunk driving can I claim that the church is responsible? Would that be illogical? Translate from one situation to the other.
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Old 15.06.2016, 00:13
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Ah, so the fact that he was wacko (His Ex even mentions "Bi Polar") is somehow insignificant?


I was baptised catholic, and raised in the United Church of Canada. If I kill someone while drunk driving can I claim that the church is responsible? Would that be illogical? Translate from one situation to the other.

Blame Canada
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Old 15.06.2016, 00:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Ah, so the fact that he was wacko (His Ex even mentions "Bi Polar") is somehow insignificant?


I was baptised catholic, and raised in the United Church of Canada. If I kill someone while drunk driving can I claim that the church is responsible? Would that be illogical? Translate from one situation to the other.
That's a ridiculous analogy. If you went out and purposely ran over 50 people with your car, and told the police you did it because the United Church of Canada told you to, and that is what the United Church of Canada had been telling people to do, and there was a pattern of people doing just that, then yes - the church would have a role in your actions. (though you would still be responsible)

from the Guardian article:

"Yusify's fiance, standing beside her as she addressed reporters, said it was clear the New York-born attacker had been an “imbalanced person”.

“I hear the media trying to make this about Isis or Islam … but it is about imbalance, it’s about society, it’s about parenting, accepting each other,” he said. "

Strange that the killer didn't mention imbalance, society, parenting, or mutual acceptance when he was telling the police why he did it, no? Not to say that these things couldn't have had anything to do with it, but to rule out ISIS influence is absurd.
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  #1679  
Old 15.06.2016, 00:47
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Ah, so the fact that he was wacko (His Ex even mentions "Bi Polar") is somehow insignificant?
No, not at all, I think it is significant.
But it doesn't mean that there were no other influences at play.

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Ah, so the fact that he was wacko (His Ex even mentions "Bi Polar") is somehow insignificant?


I was baptised catholic, and raised in the United Church of Canada. If I kill someone while drunk driving can I claim that the church is responsible? Would that be illogical? Translate from one situation to the other.
You could claim it, sure. Doesn't mean you would be right though, but you could certainly claim it.
But then you would need to justify your claim. And I don't think you could.
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  #1680  
Old 15.06.2016, 00:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No, not at all, I think it is significant.
But it doesn't mean that there were no other influences at play.



You could claim it, sure. Doesn't mean you would be right though, but you could certainly claim it.
But then you would need to justify your claim. And I don't think you could.


So, my being able to place blame on the UCC would be tenuous, yet you have no problem assigning a great weight to the effect of Islam on the other side.
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