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  #1781  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The vast majority of Muslims hate homosexuality. It is illegal in virtually all Muslim countries, and punishable by death in many.

Let's not pretend there's no issue there.
You didn't go in many Muslim countries haven't you? Blatant generalization won't bring you far. You still didn't answer my question. So let me ask again:

Who on THIS forum is Muslim and against LGBT?
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  #1782  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:20
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You didn't go in many Muslim countries haven't you? Blatant generalization won't bring you far. You still didn't answer my question. So let me ask again:

Who on THIS forum is Muslim and against LGBT?
Who gives a shit about this forum? I haven't seen many mass shootings in Switzerland in recent years, nor are Muslims on this forum representative of the greater Muslim world.

People like you hate it when non-Muslims make generalisations about Muslims. You find it illogical, irrational, whatever. And I get that. But just as idiotic is to make generalising statements saying that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion, and that non-believers don't understand what "real Islam" is.

The truth is there is no "real Islam", that's why it's important to look at the facts. Numbers show that the vast majority of Muslims believe that homosexuality is wrong.
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  #1783  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Who gives a shit about this forum? I haven't seen many mass shootings in Switzerland in recent years, nor are Muslims on this forum representative of the greater Muslim world.

People like you hate it when non-Muslims make generalisations about Muslims. You find it illogical, irrational, whatever. And I get that. But just as idiotic is to make generalising statements saying that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion, and that non-believers don't understand what "real Islam" is.

The truth is there is no "real Islam", that's why it's important to look at the facts. Numbers show that the vast majority of Muslims believe that homosexuality is wrong.
To be honest...I cant remember many pro LGBT tolerant conversations with Muslims. On the other hand, I haven't had many pro tolerance conversations with anyone who is actively involved in their own religion.
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  #1784  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Many Christians and the vast majority of Evangelical Christians and a large part of the Catholic communities in many countries are principally opposed to LGTB people. As so are Orthodox Jews. There is a huge difference between being 'religiously' not in accord with something and hatred to the point of killing, be it individuals or 'en masse' as in this case!

My father's sister committed suicide in the late 40s because she was Catholic and gay- and so did a cousin of my mother's. A nephew had to leave Switzerland to go and live in Canada to feel accepted, and a niece has chosen celibacy as this is the only way she can be accepted as part of the Swiss Catholic community- by denying her sexuality. Things are slowly changing- but you can hardly state that other religions are generally accepting of LGBT!
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  #1785  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The truth is there is no "real Islam", that's why it's important to look at the facts. Numbers show that the vast majority of Muslims believe that homosexuality is wrong.
Here are some interesting numbers based on countries as opposed to religion.



Source
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  #1786  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And yet I've seem more men holding hands and kissing each other in muslim countries than anywhere else.

I for one think it fantastic news that we focus entirely on islam as the souce of all evil and not look into ways to minimize the impact on whack jobs on society.
" I've seem more men holding hands" Indeed, I found that surprising. Often one or both also carrying a Jasmine flower, or similar.
Especially as in some countries carrying a Jasmine flower means you are wanting to get married?
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  #1787  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:44
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is quite of a statement. Who in here is Muslim and has shown hatred toward LGBT??
yeah right im talking about the islamic world as opposed to EF...

mann mann mann.

"here" as in western world of course
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  #1788  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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To be honest...I cant remember many pro LGBT tolerant conversations with Muslims. On the other hand, I haven't had many pro tolerance conversations with anyone who is actively involved in their own religion.
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Many Christians and the vast majority of Evangelical Christians and a large part of the Catholic communities in many countries are principally opposed to LGTB people. As so are Orthodox Jews. There is a huge difference between being 'religiously' not in accord with something and hatred to the point of killing, be it individuals or 'en masse' as in this case!

My father's sister committed suicide in the late 40s because she was Catholic and gay- and so did a cousin of my mother's. A nephew had to leave Switzerland to go and live in Canada to feel accepted, and a niece has chosen celibacy as this is the only way she can be accepted as part of the Swiss Catholic community- by denying her sexuality. Things are slowly changing- but you can hardly state that other religions are generally accepting of LGBT!
Anecdotal evidence doesn't help. The numbers show that Christians are far more tolerant of homosexuality. Furthermore, many in the Western World don't even identify with any religion.

I don't believe this guy shot up the club because of Islam, however it did give an "excuse" and enablement to do so.

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  #1789  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Here are some interesting numbers based on countries as opposed to religion.
Now plot that against the number of people that identify themselves as religious, and the predominant religion in those countries and that'll give a clear picture.
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  #1790  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Here are some interesting numbers based on countries as opposed to religion.



Source
Looks like it should belong to the "first world problems" thread.

Interesting that the Eastern Europe countries are all missing from this graph.

One of my LGBT friends (US) is very active in her church, I have to ask if people are aware that she is gay or if this is still taboo - both high achievers. I know both partners struggled all their lives (they are in their 60's) emotionally. It was and still is complicated.

And an anecdote: Another of my LGBT friends (Germany) attended a (catholic) service where the priest's keynote speech () was vehemently anti-LGBT. When, at the end, my friend wanted to talk with the priest, he refused to speak with my friend saying he is disgusted with my friend's ilk. This in Gemany, yes.
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  #1791  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Here are some interesting numbers based on countries as opposed to religion.



Source
Funny that Switzerland's not in it!
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  #1792  
Old 16.06.2016, 11:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Interesting that the Eastern Europe countries are all missing from this graph.
Did anyone notice the Deltas, a bit farther down the page?


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  #1793  
Old 16.06.2016, 12:00
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I don't believe this guy shot up the club because of Islam, however it did give an "excuse" and enablement to do so.
Agreed. And he's not the only case.
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  #1794  
Old 16.06.2016, 12:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Anyone with extreme ideologies should be monitored and investigated. But focusing on 1 ideology believing it is the ONLY reason people kill is a dangerous assumption


Not quite - but history has shown that whatever organizations we do manage to get ahead of in terms of counter-terrorism - another one pops up and commits an atrocity. Focusing on one at the detriment of others is what gives opportunity


I've already said that the (16) intelligence agencies should use the intelligence they have gathered to reduce opportunities. You don't get points for repeating it



And yet look at the hamhanded approach to what the populace can take on planes, or the fact they can't be trusted with a chocolate egg with a small toy in it or playing Lawn Darts

Mind you they also can't be trusted to touch something that is clearly very hot - or sip a liquid which is hot - or consume a hot product without letting it cool - without sufficient warning signs.

If Islam really was the problem - Sandy Hook wouldn't have happened. In fact how many of these can be blamed on Islam? This one in New Mexico?
you said motive didnt matter and i said it is valuable info to be used by intel agencies. be it killings from IRA motive or IS motive, i dont care. detect pattern and get a step ahead. a current pattern is islam motivated killings.

so because islam had nothing to do with sandy hook, it is not a problem at all? sandy hook happened and it's logical to raise concern about gun control.

meanwhile, islam is still a problem (arguably has been for centuries). not just because of the current islam motivated killings that should raise immediate concern about islam, but because it is part of a bigger picture in which there is an increasing amount of islamic influence in our society. looking at the rest of the world, the rule of thumb is the more islam, the more fcked up.
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  #1795  
Old 16.06.2016, 13:07
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Whether or not the shooter himself was homosexual is just a red herring, along with any other motives put forth by armchair psychologists. All evidence points to this event being inspired by Muslim extremist ideology.

From this article:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pacing-fe...622.html?nhp=1


"... The 20-year-old had watched Omar Mateen’s feet as he paced about; she’d listened to his rants to hostage negotiators about U.S. bombings in Afghanistan and his allegiance to militant Islamic groups."

Perhaps he just found a nice, soft target for his murderous rampage - and the fact that the victims were gay made it even easier for him to justify such a heinous act.
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  #1796  
Old 16.06.2016, 13:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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From this article:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pacing-fe...622.html?nhp=1


"... The 20-year-old had watched Omar Mateen’s feet as he paced about; she’d listened to his rants to hostage negotiators about U.S. bombings in Afghanistan and his allegiance to militant Islamic groups."

Perhaps he just found a nice, soft target for his murderous rampage - and the fact that the victims were gay made it even easier for him to justify such a heinous act.
This is the crux of the matter. People are afraid of calling it islamism fueled/excused/justified. This is why right wing demagoges get attention, btw.

The inability to recognize that there is a problem, and the only way to support reformers is to openly talk about the issue.
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  #1797  
Old 16.06.2016, 13:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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In a strict version of islamic law, being gay IS the crime justifying capital punishment.
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And yet I've seem more men holding hands and kissing each other in muslim countries than anywhere else.
Just wanted to point out my understanding there is no punishment under Islam specifically for being a homosexual, holding hands etc. The punishment comes from people committing adultery and having anal sex.
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  #1798  
Old 16.06.2016, 13:46
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This is the crux of the matter. People are afraid of calling it islamism fueled/excused/justified. This is why right wing demagoges get attention, btw.

The inability to recognize that there is a problem, and the only way to support reformers is to openly talk about the issue.
But isn't that a similar debate like the one we have with "Videogames cause school-shootings and killing-sprees"?

I'm not someone who denies the fact that Islam has a huge problem with violence, women-rights etc - to the contrary.
But in a way, these are often merely symptoms of larger issues in the various societies.

From what I can see, this guy looks to me just like the typical wacko who wanted to go out with as big a bang possible.
Pulling the t(errorist)-card himself just made sure the bang was bigger.

People should realize that short of an assembly ban, everybody working from home, having food delivered home and a general curfew after dawn, nothing is going to stop the next attack in this line.
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  #1799  
Old 16.06.2016, 13:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

With respect to him being an Islamist terrorist:
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Sorry folks, but your supposed “Islamic radical terrorist from Afghanistan” is as American as apple pie made with homegrown apples and baked in an American made oven.
To read the full text: http://usuncut.com/politics/powerful...ando-shooting/
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Old 16.06.2016, 13:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

There is a short clip of him in this BP documentary, working as a security guard. Completely unremarkable as you would probably expect.

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