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  #1801  
Old 16.06.2016, 13:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But isn't that a similar debate like the one we have with "Videogames cause school-shootings and killing-sprees"?

I'm not someone who denies the fact that Islam has a huge problem with violence, women-rights etc - to the contrary.
But in a way, these are often merely symptoms of larger issues in the various societies.

From what I can see, this guy looks to me just like the typical wacko who wanted to go out with as big a bang possible.
Pulling the t(errorist)-card himself just made sure the bang was bigger.

People should realize that short of an assembly ban, everybody working from home, having food delivered home and a general curfew after dawn, nothing is going to stop the next attack in this line.
It would be the same if people named videogames as the reason. But so far nobody has. This is a double standard with religion as a motive. If someone kills a person and states "oh he owed me money". That's it. That is the motive. But when someone does it in the name of a religious belief "oh no it must have been a socioeconomical/political x factor".
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  #1802  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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With respect to him being an Islamist terrorist:

To read the full text: http://usuncut.com/politics/powerful...ando-shooting/
he pledged allegiance to hezbollah, aq and is. all three clearly anti western from islamic pov. but they are also at war with each other because everybody wants to be top dog.

so because mateen didnt care about the inner political issues between those groups he is automatically excluded from being an islamist?

he was not religious in the slightest according to his wife the accomplice and father the taliban fan? yet went to mosque his whole life?
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  #1803  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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he pledged allegiance to hezbollah, aq and is. all three clearly anti western from islamic pov. but they are also at war with each other because everybody wants to be top dog.

so because mateen didnt care about the inner political issues between those groups he is automatically excluded from being an islamist?

he was not religious in the slightest according to his wife the accomplice and father the taliban fan? yet went to mosque his whole life?
No it shows that he didn't know much about these groups.

He was hanging out in gay bars, drinking and definitely not living the "Islamic" way.
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  #1804  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No it shows that he didn't know much about these groups.

He was hanging out in gay bars, drinking and definitely not living the "Islamic" way.
He was more a "do as I say, don't do as I do" kind of fellow.
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  #1805  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:11
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But when someone does it in the name of a religious belief "oh no it must have been a socioeconomical/political x factor".
It is a fact that most terrorism is due to ethno-nationalism, socio-economics or political grievances. Of course religion does play a part, but its mainly as a tool to recruit and brainwash. I accept that people do do awful things in the name of religion, but then atrocities are also committed in the name of communism, nationalism, drug gangs etc... Its all the same sort of virus.

I can't think of any mainstream religion which espouses killing innocent people and spreading terror and hate because common sense dictates that they wouldn't last very long. Sooner or later others would gang up on those belligerents and wipe them out. Law of the jungle.
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  #1806  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It is a fact that most terrorism is due to ethno-nationalism, socio-economics or political grievances. Of course religion does play a part, but its mainly as a tool to recruit and brainwash. I accept that people do do awful things in the name of religion, but then atrocities are also committed in the name of communism, nationalism, drug gangs etc... Its all the same sort of virus.
You're losing focus. It is widely accepted that ALL gun deaths in the US are committed by Muslims and in the name of Islam*.


*Including the Mexican gangbangers fighting over crystal turf.
** Including young children accidentially shooting their parents in the car - that is the will of god.
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  #1807  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:16
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No it shows that he didn't know much about these groups.

He was hanging out in gay bars, drinking and definitely not living the "Islamic" way.
so how much does one need to know to be considered an islamist by you?

is hypocrisy in (religious) people really so surprising?
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  #1808  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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You're losing focus. It is widely accepted that ALL gun crime in the US is committed by Muslims.

Exactly. The few non muslims firing weapons at groups of fellow Americans are merely exercising their rights.
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  #1809  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:18
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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It is a fact that most terrorism is due to ethno-nationalism, socio-economics or political grievances. Of course religion does play a part, but its mainly as a tool to recruit and brainwash. I accept that people do do awful things in the name of religion, but then atrocities are also committed in the name of communism, nationalism, drug gangs etc... Its all the same sort of virus.

I can't think of any mainstream religion which espouses killing innocent people and spreading terror and hate because common sense dictates that they wouldn't last very long. Sooner or later others would gang up on those belligerents and wipe them out. Law of the jungle.
As far as a tool go. There is a reason it is one and not buddhism and jainism. Islamism isan enabling belief and as such should be discussed and confronted.

Not all beliefs are equal in danger and that is the point. Arguing that we should disable the means (such as guns) while ignoring the cause completely flies over cases like the boston bombing (which Nil seem to have overlooked).
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  #1810  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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so how much does one need to know to be considered an islamist by you?

is hypocrisy in (religious) people really so surprising?
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1. An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life.
2. The religious faith, principles, or cause of Islam.
Link

Our gunman missed quite a lot of the note on how to be an Islamist.
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  #1811  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:33
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

I have to admit the ability of gun loving Americans to twist the argument is truly impressive.

Lets look at the numbers - between 2004 and 2013 there were 36 terrorism related deaths on US soil of American citizens. If you go back to 9/11 there have been 2961 deaths of US soil - 2902 of those on 9/11.

In 2014 the firearm related death rate in the US is 10.54 per 100,000 - or about 31000 per year (give or take). So in the time it took for 59 US citizen to be killed by terrorists on US soil - around 350,000 people were killed by a firearm in the US.

Or enough people to be the 57th largest city in the US.

Sources: Terrorist deaths; US Information - Wikipedia.
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  #1812  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Our gunman missed quite a lot of the note on how to be an Islamist.
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adj
(Islam) supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism
n
(Islam) a supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism
seems like he fully got it, tbh.
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  #1813  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:34
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Our gunman missed quite a lot of the note on how to be an Islamist.
In reductio ad absurdum then bobody is really ever anything.
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  #1814  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:35
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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No it shows that he didn't know much about these groups.

He was hanging out in gay bars, drinking and definitely not living the "Islamic" way.
Not trying to offend you, or judge you either, but haven't you stated on a previous post on this forum that you are a non-practicing Muslim?

Ah, found it, from here, post no. 4:

Daily Life for Muslims in Switzerland

"We are Muslims.

For my part I am a non believer and my husband is more of a culturally kind of Muslim. He usually goes to the mosque once a year (if so) top." - nil

Most of the Islamic world would also say that you yourself are not living the 'Islamic way'. A non-believer, no less - that's apostasy, no? - punishable by death in many countries.

So are you a Muslim or not?

Not that I care, just pointing out your hypocrisy. You say the shooter was not a true Muslim, yet he was more active in Islam than you are - though you call yourself a Muslim.

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  #1815  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I have to admit the ability of gun loving Americans to twist the argument is truly impressive.
right, because as an American concerned about Islamic terrorism, it means that you must love guns.
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  #1816  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Not trying to offend you, or judge you either, but haven't you stated on a previous post on this forum that you are a non-practicing Muslim?

Ah, found it, from here, post no. 4:

Daily Life for Muslims in Switzerland

"We are Muslims.

For my part I am a non believer and my husband is more of a culturally kind of Muslim. He usually goes to the mosque once a year (if so) top." - nil

Most of the Islamic world would also say that you yourself are not living the 'Islamic way'. A non-believer, no less - that's apostasy, no? - punishable by death in many countries.

So are you a Muslim or not?

Not that I care, just pointing out your hypocrisy. You say the shooter was not a true Muslim, yet he was more active in Islam than you are - though you call yourself a Muslim.

Since you are so good at finding what I said, please tell me where I said the shooter wasn't a true Muslim?
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  #1817  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:55
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Since you are so good at finding what I said, please tell me where I said the shooter wasn't a true Muslim?
Is it out of line for me to infer that from you saying that "He missed quite a lot of the note on how to be an Islamist" and that he was "definitely not living the Islamic way"

If so, well - sorry, you got me there :roll eyes:

Are you going to answer my question now?
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  #1818  
Old 16.06.2016, 14:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Is it out of line for me to infer that from you saying that "He missed quite a lot of the note on how to be an Islamist" and that he was "definitely not living the Islamic way"

If so, well - sorry, you got me there :roll eyes:

Are you going to answer my question now?
I'll refer you to the definition of Islamist, which he wasn't. Saying you are an Islamist isn't enough to be one. Islam is the religion, Islamism is a way of living, he didn't lived like an Islamist.

Not all Muslims are Islamists and all Islamists are Muslims.
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  #1819  
Old 16.06.2016, 15:08
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'll refer you to the definition of Islamist, which he wasn't. Saying you are an Islamist isn't enough to be one. Islam is the religion, Islamism is a way of living, he didn't lived like an Islamist.

Not all Muslims are Islamists and all Islamists are Muslims.
whatever - in the thesaurus section of the link you posted, Islamist is a synonym for Muslim. But you just want to have your cake and eat it, too.
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  #1820  
Old 16.06.2016, 15:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Since you are so good at finding what I said, please tell me where I said the shooter wasn't a true Muslim?
Would that be the same as a true Scotsman?
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