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  #1841  
Old 16.06.2016, 22:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

John McCain just said that Obama was directly responsible for the shooting.
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  #1842  
Old 16.06.2016, 22:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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John McCain just said that Obama was directly responsible for the shooting.
As opposed to the promotion and justification of hate against gays that his party has been doing all those years. Just guessing...
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  #1843  
Old 16.06.2016, 22:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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John McCain just said that Obama was directly responsible for the shooting.
No wonder American politics is up the creek without a paddle.
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  #1844  
Old 16.06.2016, 23:17
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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John McCain just said that Obama was directly responsible for the shooting.
John McCain is proof positive that faithfully serving your country and serving multiple years as a prisoner of war bear absolutely zero relation to any ability to intelligently and rationally act as a part of our system of representative democracy. McCain is an ass, has been intellectually dead for close to 20 years, and ran the worst presidential campaign in the history of American politics solely to personally enrich himself.
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  #1845  
Old 16.06.2016, 23:27
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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John McCain is proof positive that faithfully serving your country and serving multiple years as a prisoner of war bear absolutely zero relation to any ability to intelligently and rationally act as a part of our system of representative democracy. McCain is an ass, has been intellectually dead for close to 20 years, and ran the worst presidential campaign in the history of American politics until Trumpsolely to personally enrich himself.
Ftfy
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  #1846  
Old 17.06.2016, 04:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

For once, Bill O'Reilly has something intelligent to contribute to solving the gun crime problem. Well worth listening to the whole of this discussion between O'Reilly and Stephen Colbert, who are at polar opposites of the political spectrum.

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  #1847  
Old 17.06.2016, 09:31
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Whether or not the shooter himself was homosexual is just a red herring, along with any other motives put forth by armchair psychologists. All evidence points to this event being inspired by Muslim extremist ideology.
.
I "loved" the post-mortem psychoanalysis on EF, not totally unsubstantiated (though they missed the part with "he hated his mother")....but I agree it's a red herring.
When he was chasing people to shoot them in that club he was heard saying something along the line - "I do this for my country" (he meant Afghanistan)
I would say he was heavily influenced by the islamist propaganda on the net, but that sort of added to underlying issues. He was described as lacking social "grace" by former colleagues, he had difficulties in making friends, etc etc.
So many unfortunate things sort of cumulated one day.

But then again, it was so easy to get his hands on all those weapons...
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  #1848  
Old 17.06.2016, 09:40
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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"I do this for my country" (he meant Afghanistan)
How do you know what he meant? Or if he even said that?

In any case, even if he had said something along those lines, Mateen had never even been to Afghanistan and reportedly felt no connection to that country -- that "report" comes from his father. I think it's highly unlikely that he would have been referring to Afghanistan. Had he said those words, he may well have been referring to the US, and that he was doing "this" to rid his country -- the country of his birth and citizenship, to which he would have sworn allegiance throughout his school years -- of the "scourge of homosexuality", which he at once despised and secretly craved to be part of.

That conjecture is equally valid as yours, and all the other twisted theories being bandied about. One thing's for certain: Mateen had very easy, legal access to guns to commit his crimes, and had he not, the murders may not have happened.
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  #1849  
Old 17.06.2016, 09:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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How do you know what he meant? Or if he even said that?

In any case, even if he had said something along those lines, Mateen had never even been to Afghanistan and reportedly felt no connection to that country -- that "report" comes from his father. I think it's highly unlikely that he would have been referring to Afghanistan. Had he said those words, he may well have been referring to the US, and that he was doing "this" to rid his country -- the country of his birth and citizenship, to which he would have sworn allegiance throughout his school years -- of the "scourge of homosexuality", which he at once despised and secretly craved to be part of.

That conjecture is equally valid as yours, and all the other twisted theories being bandied about. One thing's for certain: Mateen had very easy, legal access to guns to commit his crimes, and had he not, the murders may not have happened.
He was heard saying that by those few survivors who hid in the toilets of the club. They might have heard voices, how would I know.
And (according to them) he didn't mean America.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...e-before-atta/
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A survivor of the mass shooting has described the moments before her friend was murdered and her attempts to find her during the attack.

Patience Carter, sitting on a hospital bed trolley, delivered a powerful poem of the guilt she felt at being alive and told reporters the final moments of her friends and how the shooter had said he wanted “Americans to stop bombing his country".

The 20-year-old Philadelphian was visiting her two friends in Florida and said they were outside in the patio area while their friend was still inside when the attack began.

"That's when we started hearing the gunshots," she said. She added that she thought the DJ was trying to get everyone to leave. "I was so confused."

When they went back in, they ran into the bathroom and then the shooter entered and continued his rampage. Ms Carter was shot in the leg during the commotion.

"At that point, we knew this wasn't a game. This was very real. It was shock; we just went from having the time of our lives to the worst time of our lives in a matter of minutes."

Ms Carter said he made the claims about America's bombings while dozens hid inside the bathroom. She said they could hear him pledge allegiance to Isil during the 911 call.

"We knew what his motive was. He wasn't going to stop killing people until he was killed," she said.

At one point, she said he asked whether there were any black people in the room. Ms Carter said one man said yes to which the killer replied: "You know I don’t have a problem with black people. This is about my country. You guys suffered enough.”

It is presumed that he was referring to the country of his father: Afghanistan.

Although police have said there was only one gunman, she said that she thought there could have been others involved.

“It sounded as if he was communicating with other people who were involved with it.

"Maybe he was just deranged, maybe he’s just talking to himself, but I honestly feel like I don’t think he was able to pull that off all by himself."

Before the SWAT team got inside, another individual died as they saved Ms Carter but her friend, Akyra Murray, the youngest victim of the attack, was already dead. The third, Tiara Parker, was also another lucky survivor.
I'd say the police/FBI has a long way till they find out the truth about this tragic event. I'd wait for their conclusions tbh.

Last edited by greenmount; 17.06.2016 at 09:57.
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  #1850  
Old 17.06.2016, 10:22
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

And it gets more interesting:

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/orlando-sh...opstories.html

The killer tried to buy high end body armor and bulk ammo from a Fla. gun store a few weeks beforehand. When they didn't have the body armor he wanted, he made a phone call in a foreign language, hung up the phone, and then asked about the ammo. The store owners notified the FBI but nothing came of it.

Who was the phone call to, and why? Was he just placing a take out order for a döner box, or were there others involved in the planning and execution of the killing spree (besides his wife...) Will he still be considered a lone wolf nutjob weird repressed gay guy with bad parenting who chose to claim ISIS as his motive to make a bigger impact (as if being the guy responsible for the worst mass shooting in US history wouldn't have been enough), or will he be recognized as an ISIS jihadi Muslim extremist nutjob?

Also, posted by the killer on his Facebook account, :

"You kill innocent women and children by doing us airstrikes..now taste the Islamic state vengeance," Mateen posted, according to officials in the FBI’s counterterrorism division. "In the next few days you will see attacks from the Islamic State in the usa."
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  #1851  
Old 17.06.2016, 10:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'd say the police/FBI has a long way till they find out the truth about this tragic event. I'd wait for their conclusions tbh.
The problem with that approach is:
One doesnt' get to shoot from the hip, and the media have next to nothing to sell.
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  #1852  
Old 17.06.2016, 10:38
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

To clarify, going forward all shootings will be blamed on Islam and not guns. Is that right?

What do we do when a white supremacist guns down 30 people in a Mosque? Do we blame that on Islam?

What about a gangbanger kills a rival dealer and their 3 children? Do we blame that on Islam too?

Will all firearm deaths now be added to the terrorism statistics? Blamed on Islam?
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  #1853  
Old 17.06.2016, 10:51
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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To clarify, going forward all shootings will be blamed on Islam and not guns. Is that right?

What do we do when a white supremacist guns down 30 people in a Mosque? Do we blame that on Islam?

What about a gangbanger kills a rival dealer and their 3 children? Do we blame that on Islam too?

Will all firearm deaths now be added to the terrorism statistics? Blamed on Islam?
Why do you twist the argument to make the Islamic extremist problem and the easy access to guns problem mutually exclusive? And want to make it seem as if people concerned about violent Islamic extremism want to blame all of the problems of the world on Islam?

You can pretend Islamic extremism doesn't exist, but that won't make it go away. Same goes for America's easy access to guns. (And white supremacism ideology, too. And gangbangers and drug dealers...)
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  #1854  
Old 17.06.2016, 10:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Why do you twist the argument to make the Islamic extremist problem and the easy access to guns problem mutually exclusive? And want to make it seem as if people concerned about violent Islamic extremism want to blame all of the problems of the world on Islam?

You can pretend Islamic extremism doesn't exist, but that won't make it go away. Same goes for America's easy access to guns.
Because we've had 10 pages on this attack (killing 50 people) debating how the motive was the reason it happened.

That in itself means we consider that the (approximately) 80 people that die daily in the US from firearms aren't worth considering.

I'm not saying the extremism across a wide range of ideologies is not worth addressing, but focusing on the small number (50 deaths from terrorism) rather than the big number (32,000 deaths from firearms per year in the US) seems like a distraction technique.
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  #1855  
Old 17.06.2016, 10:59
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

So a white suprematist kills for political reason: he is mentally ill.

A brown Muslim kills for "religious" * reason: terrorist Islamist.



* still waiting
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  #1856  
Old 17.06.2016, 11:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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So a white suprematist kills for political reason: he is mentally ill.

A brown Muslim kills for "religious" * reason: terrorist Islamist.



* still waiting
This has nothing to do with skin color and it is absurd to paint it that way. A white supremacist that kills for a political reason is a mentally ill terrorist white supremacist. A brown (or white, or black, or green) Muslim who kills for a religious reason is a mentally ill terrorist Islamist.

Has anyone said otherwise? Or are you trying to play the victim?
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  #1857  
Old 17.06.2016, 11:05
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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This has nothing to do with skin color and it is absurd to paint it that way. A white supremacist that kills for a political reason is a mentally ill terrorist white supremacist. A brown (or white, or black, or green) Muslim who kills for a religious reason is a mentally ill terrorist Islamist.

Has anyone said otherwise? Or are you trying to play the victim?
Nope - they don't get called a terrorist.
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  #1858  
Old 17.06.2016, 11:10
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Nope - they don't get called a terrorist.
The IRA weren't called terrorists?

Basque seperatists?

The Unabomber?

Timothy McVeigh?

The list of domestic terrorist attacks in the US doesn't exclude white people. In fact, most of the attacks listed were committed by white people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domest..._United_States

Same goes for Europe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror...European_Union

(Although 12 out the last 14 terror events in the EU, that are listed here, have been committed by Islamic terrorists)
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  #1859  
Old 17.06.2016, 11:19
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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The IRA weren't called terrorists?
Basque seperatists?
The Unabomber?
Timothy McVeigh?
The list of domestic terrorist attacks in the US doesn't exclude white people. In fact, most of the attacks listed were committed by white people:
(Although 12 out the last 14 terror events in the EU have been committed by Islamic terrorists)
Are you ever going to respond on the 32000 people that die in the US every year from firearms? Are you going to just continually talk about terrorism or do you want to go back to discussing shootings?
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  #1860  
Old 17.06.2016, 11:26
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Are you ever going to respond on the 32000 people that die in the US every year from firearms? Are you going to just continually talk about terrorism or do you want to go back to discussing shootings?
I agree that easy access to guns is a problem, and have stated that - same as you. But it's not the only problem. There's easy access to guns here in CH, too - but a much lower rate of gun violence and deaths. The American Wild West mentality is also a problem imo, along with easy access to high capacity killing machines and handguns (hunting rifles don't seem to be an issue to me)- and extremist ideologies that advocate for mass killing sprees don't help, either.
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