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  #1961  
Old 02.07.2016, 17:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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"thinking about the future " It is not a question about that or basic human instinct but more what preconceived ideas/decisions the cop has in his head when he enters such a situation. If the cop is thinking; if anybody appears with a gun I will immediately shoot to kill then....
I'm guessing that you don't know many coppers personally.

In Viernheim it was an SEK unit.

You might think that this would be the case with the GSG9 and SEK units, I submit to you that their selection procedures (applied after the general selection procedures to enter the police force) would tend to weed such people out. Yes, their training is that when they shoot, then they shoot to kill, but that is different from the idea of them wandering around hoping that a target will appear (which is what I think you are saying above).

Not that I want to claim that there are no bad cops, but rather that they aren't likely to reach the special units that are called on in a situation such as Viernheim.
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  #1962  
Old 02.07.2016, 18:41
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I'm guessing that you don't know many coppers personally.

In Viernheim it was an SEK unit.

You might think that this would be the case with the GSG9 and SEK units, I submit to you that their selection procedures (applied after the general selection procedures to enter the police force) would tend to weed such people out. Yes, their training is that when they shoot, then they shoot to kill, but that is different from the idea of them wandering around hoping that a target will appear (which is what I think you are saying above).

Not that I want to claim that there are no bad cops, but rather that they aren't likely to reach the special units that are called on in a situation such as Viernheim.
"but that is different from the idea of them wandering around hoping that a target will appear (which is what I think you are saying above)."
Your guess is wrong.

My view is that when such a situation arises then "shoot to kill" is the simplest option for the police involved.
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  #1963  
Old 02.07.2016, 22:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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My view is that when such a situation arises then "shoot to kill" is the simplest option for the police involved.
In the US, because of the insane litigation, it is better to deliver a fatal shot rather than one that would incapacitate.
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  #1964  
Old 02.07.2016, 23:54
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )



Tom
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  #1965  
Old 04.07.2016, 14:23
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I think it is much more basic than that. If I were a cop, and it came down to it, I wouldn't have enough time to be thinking about the future any farther than how long it takes between pulling the trigger the first time, and the bullet entry on the 2nd shot. I suspect that this is pretty much the case for any armed police officer in any nation facing an armed shooter. It may happen less elsewhere, but I suspect that the few seconds involved have nothing whatsoever to do with anything other than a very basic human instinct.
I agree that a significant portion is probably suicide by cop, but that's also a consequence of the deadly intent cops use their firepower with.

The range of reactions is much more a consequence of training, and how your mind is framed by that and by what you're told. I agree that sometimes there's no time to think, that's when what you've been trained, automatisms, is expected to take effect, and if you've been trained to shoot to kill (ask questions later) that's what you do. However, the incidents where it's "kill or be killed" must be a very small minority or there would have to be many more dead policemen than the 50 annually shot dead each year according to omdp.org, compared to an estimated 1000 civilians killed by cop each year, a good many completely unarmed to begin with.

If however training tells you to use force only as much as necessary, and you're not allowed to use deadly force unless your own life or that of others is in imminent danger (Notwehr), and that if reasonably doable you should try to not hit deadly, that also is what's going to happen: Usually non-lethal use of force including firearms.

You can easily find reports on non-lethal use of firearms by local Swiss or German police (aparently 10-30 incidents annually in CH), but lethal use is rather rare even when they are (about to be) attacked.

It's a mistake to compare special troops like SEK to ordinary US police. I wouldn't be surprised if the SEK acceptance tests alone took longer than ordinary police training (slight exaggeration). And yes, when they're called the possibly deadly emergency already is clear, another difference to standard police personnel.

The cop who murdered Zachary Hammond for example wasn't even indicted. The video clearly showis that the cop was never even remotely in danger when he shot twice at point-blank distance because the teen, who had 10 grams of mariuana on him, tried to drive away. The official video was released at the same time the decision to not indict was published. That's what you get when special powers granted go unchecked.

@Tom
NRA has five million members, so statistically about one in fifty citizens older than, say, 16 is member. And that doesn't consider that many of those loonies were loners so unlikely to join any association to begin with.
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  #1966  
Old 04.07.2016, 14:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Tom
Nonsense. Is this made up BS really an argument against regulating gun purchases?

I'll just take one example:
I'm not sure how Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia tech shooted could have been a "registered Democrat" given that, he was Korean national with permanent residency status, not a U.S. citizen, and unable to vote.
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  #1967  
Old 04.07.2016, 15:12
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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...

If however training tells you to use force only as much as necessary, and you're not allowed to use deadly force unless your own life or that of others is in imminent danger (Notwehr), and that if reasonably doable you should try to not hit deadly, that also is what's going to happen: Usually non-lethal use of force including firearms.

You can easily find reports on non-lethal use of firearms by local Swiss or German police (aparently 10-30 incidents annually in CH), but lethal use is rather rare even when they are (about to be) attacked.
...
I agree that training plays huge role in the mechanics of aiming and pulling the trigger.

I submit to you that the level, and the rate of increase of gun violence feed back into the training regimen. I wonder how many Swiss or German policemen retire without ever having had to fire their weapon (except for training exercises), I would think that this would be low in comparison to the US, apparently even to Canada.

As the tension rises, so does the incidence of lethal force. Here is a link to some (incomplete) information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_...ement_officers

Notice that while most nations only merit a single page, while the US stats first split into years, then individual months. I doubt that the training budget in the US has risen as sharply as the rate of police shootings.

Note, I am by no means claiming that all police killings are justified, but rather that it isn't terribly surprising.
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  #1968  
Old 05.07.2016, 11:50
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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I wonder how many Swiss or German policemen retire without ever having had to fire their weapon (except for training exercises), I would think that this would be low in comparison to the US, apparently even to Canada.
Probably the vast majority. 16k policemen in CH, so roughly 500 per "vintage" year, and long-term 10-30 gun uses on duty according to some NZZ article I saw recently, though 20 on average may be a bit too high (2015: 15, 2014: 11, 2013: 9 gun uses, the effect of Tasers perhaps?). Don't know any numbers for Germany.

Make up your own probability
If you assume that on average four policemen shoot (one patrol typically consists of two people, but certainly they will demand reinforcements) you get around 15% chance to ever fire on duty based on 20 shootings per year.
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I agree that training plays huge role in the mechanics of aiming and pulling the trigger.

I submit to you that the level, and the rate of increase of gun violence feed back into the training regimen.
Using homicide rate as a proxy, there's no such thing as (longer term) increase in gun violence, perhaps unless one picks a quite specific and narrow time frame. Violent crimes actually fell over the last 20 years by about 30% in absolute numbers, and by about 50% per capita. Over 40 years there may be a similar pattern that's present in homicide rates, i.e. a spike up in the nineties followed by a reverse trend

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As the tension rises, so does the incidence of lethal force. Here is a link to some (incomplete) information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_...ement_officers
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Notice that while most nations only merit a single page, while the US stats first split into years, then individual months. I doubt that the training budget in the US has risen as sharply as the rate of police shootings.

Note, I am by no means claiming that all police killings are justified, but rather that it isn't terribly surprising.
What do you mean by rising tensions? Do you conclude that, because of the huge number of kills by cop there must be an underlying reason? That would be rather sloppy logic, and wrong to boot as evidenced by FBI data.

Ratio of assaults resulting injured law enforcement personnel was 3.5-4% in 1998/1999 vs 3.5% in recent years, if anything that rate appears to be falling. And here's the reality about police officers killed on duty, again as per FBI data:

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  #1969  
Old 05.07.2016, 11:53
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

An absolute idiot shot his own kid when a hit casing went down his back and tried to use his pistol as a back scratcher but he pulled the trigger instead.

The mind boggles.
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  #1970  
Old 05.07.2016, 11:56
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

1 person dead after a shooting in Winznau,

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/bern/story/23523361
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  #1971  
Old 05.07.2016, 12:03
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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An absolute idiot shot his own kid when a hit casing went down his back and tried to use his pistol as a back scratcher but he pulled the trigger instead.

The mind boggles.
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  #1972  
Old 05.07.2016, 12:14
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Probably the vast majority. 16k policemen in CH, so roughly 500 per "vintage" year, and long-term 10-30 gun uses on duty according to some NZZ article I saw recently, though 20 on average may be a bit too high (2015: 15, 2014: 11, 2013: 9 gun uses, the effect of Tasers perhaps?). Don't know any numbers for Germany.
...
What do you mean by rising tensions? Do you conclude that, because of the huge number of kills by cop there must be an underlying reason? That would be rather sloppy logic, and wrong to boot as evidenced by FBI data.
...
Perhaps I could have been clearer. By "rising tensions" I mean the perception that there is an immanent, or even imminent, threat. Would you disagree that in the last decade and a half the news has increasingly bombarded us with the message that we are under attack?
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Old 05.07.2016, 16:06
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

If with "we" you mean the west in general, then I agree somewhat, certainly in the sense that that's what some have been and are trying to sell.

With respect to the US I'd agree, with the addition that in my mind that's been always present, perhaps with an intermezzo in the nineties thanks to the peace dividend.
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  #1974  
Old 05.07.2016, 20:30
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Nonsense. Is this made up BS really an argument against regulating gun purchases?

I'll just take one example:
I'm not sure how Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia tech shooted could have been a "registered Democrat" given that, he was Korean national with permanent residency status, not a U.S. citizen, and unable to vote.
Confirmed rubbish. Congresswoman Gifford's shooter was registered independent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner
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  #1975  
Old 05.07.2016, 21:09
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Man got shot in the back by a shotgun in the red light districts in Basel.

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/basel/st...linte-26347044
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  #1976  
Old 07.07.2016, 12:52
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

A black man was shot while lying on the floor and pinned down by two cops.

After he didn't follow orders to lie on the ground, the two police officers tackled and felled him, pinning him down. Even though he appears quite safely locked down, one officer draws his gun when someone shouts "he's got a gun" and a few seconds later shoots at point blank. Four more shots follow.

Here's an article. I find the video quite disturbing, not in a horror movie style but because it shows zero reason to pull the trigger.

Yet another case of white cop kills black victim. I wouldn't be surprised to see the next wave of riots.
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  #1977  
Old 07.07.2016, 15:22
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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A black man was shot while lying on the floor and pinned down by two cops.

After he didn't follow orders to lie on the ground, the two police officers tackled and felled him, pinning him down. Even though he appears quite safely locked down, one officer draws his gun when someone shouts "he's got a gun" and a few seconds later shoots at point blank. Four more shots follow.

Here's an article. I find the video quite disturbing, not in a horror movie style but because it shows zero reason to pull the trigger.

Yet another case of white cop kills black victim. I wouldn't be surprised to see the next wave of riots.
Thanks Urs Max, I wanted to post about this case too after I saw the news this morning. Disgusting, he was shot like a dog...by the police! In a so-called first world country or something.. I have never seen anything like that.
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  #1978  
Old 07.07.2016, 15:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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A black man was shot while lying on the floor and pinned down by two cops.
Saw it too. You would have thought they'd learned by now. It really makes me despair.

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Yet another case of white cop kills black victim. I wouldn't be surprised to see the next wave of riots.
I hope not. But it may well happen.

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Thanks Urs Max, I wanted to post about this case too after I saw the news this morning. Disgusting, he was shot like a dog...by the police! In a so-called first world country or something.. I have never seen anything like that.
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  #1979  
Old 07.07.2016, 15:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

And yet another black man shot dead by a cop...
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  #1980  
Old 07.07.2016, 16:01
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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But the victim was black so that doesn't really count. If a black guy had killed a white woman - then I think the US would need to have a serious conversation about gun control.
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