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Old 30.08.2012, 19:55
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

What a shame !!

http://www.firstpost.com/tech/not-re...ns-436431.html
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Old 30.08.2012, 21:35
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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Unless you can find evidence to the contrary, I'm pretty certain there was no such agreement and all that happened is that Xerox foolishly gave Jobs free reign to look at what was being done at their PARC research labs, by Xerox executives who had limited understanding that they were essentially about to "give away the kitchen sink".
Here is some evidence:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_(company)

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The first successful commercial GUI product was the Apple Macintosh, which was heavily inspired by PARC's work; Xerox was allowed to buy pre-IPO stock from Apple, in exchange for engineer visits
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Old 31.08.2012, 04:58
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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Here is some evidence:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_(company)

The first successful commercial GUI product was the Apple Macintosh, which was heavily inspired by PARC's work; Xerox was allowed to buy pre-IPO stock from Apple, in exchange for engineer visits

There were many successful Xerox inspired GUI products before Apple Mac.

In a way Xerox did well out of this, getting pre IPO stock, as lots of other companies were already using their tech by then. Wirth had already left Xerox Parc and built Lilith at ETH when Apple was being founded and still working up to the very simple Apple II, nowhere near a GUI or Lilith.

Also Apple Lisa was before Mac, and Lisa was really cool and actually successful, 1000s of Lisas were sold at 10K each, gaining Apple invaluable cashflow, marketing and manufacturing experience) before they launched the cheaper lower spec Mac, which was a definite step backwards after Lisa in terms of features and also ease of use.

So before Lisa there were several much more powerful and successful commercial GUI based workstations for more advanced users, like the Three Rivers PERQ, 1978 on, which was my favorite, which is functionally much closer to the Macs running Cheetah around 2000, or NeXT in terms of features, than the original Mac. The 1978- PERQ has a gorgeous 1MP bitmap display, A4 sized, Hardware graphics acceleration, UNIX OS, virtual memory, fast hardware accelerated pointing device, ethernet, internal hard drive. Dragging a window moves the whole window and contents in real time, never any jitter or smudging, unlike the much later Mac, which just moved the wire frame, and had a tiny screens. These PERQs sold for about 25K each, again 1000s were made. Awesome kit. I bought one used in 1985 as a student, and it was my main programming box for a few years. Hardware wise it was architecturally very similar to early Xerox Alto machines, but with AMD bit slice internals. A Touch screen kit was available back then, Laser printer interface came out in 1982 or so.

I worked for Xerox in the early 90s developing a cellular handheld mobile app, and happened to use a Xerox Alto style office machine for email. A good 10 years old, the amazing thing was how fully integrated all the Apps were with each other. It had that smooth integrated feeling that Apple uses get addicted to. Forget the exact tech used, that nice smooth warm always works, safe feeling is what gets users hooked.

The point of this, is that the original Mac was very different, and much more restricted in features than the Xerox Alto machines. Apple's innovation came through leaving out features, simplifying, making the user think this is better because it is simpler, and then being able to make it for less yet sell it for more.

Apple seems to be doing that still, with Samsung producing more powerful phones with more features. With Google Cloud having more features than Apples. It is difficult to patent leaving stuff out though. Apple works round and does a pretty good job though!
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Old 01.09.2012, 01:10
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I find this hilarious but not sure its true.

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Old 03.09.2012, 20:56
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

I just read Apple now wants the galaxy 3 also forbidden in the U.S. ? wow they just keep attacking!
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Old 03.09.2012, 22:07
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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I just read Apple now wants the galaxy 3 also forbidden in the U.S. ? wow they just keep attacking!
Nice people.

Still, Samsung were asking for it. Android was never as smooth and integrated as Apple kit, never would be, that is not the point. For many, openness freedom, flexibility and power were a fair trade for tied in perfection. Through Samsung management obsessing over point by point comparisons, trying to defeat or clone iPhone innovations one by one, rather than delivering to the masses at a good price point, Samsung management got a bloody nose through trying to copy. Their disk drives, TV, Memory, LCDs and electronics were all top. Why didn't they just keep making great hardware?
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  #67  
Old 04.09.2012, 10:10
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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In a way Xerox did well out of this, getting pre IPO stock, as lots of other companies were already using their tech by then.
Xerox was allowed to buy pre-IPO Apple stock for allowing Apple to see the research at PARC, however this did not include any licence to actually use it and so Xerox ultimately sued Apple for copyright infringement - losing, because the un-patented research could not be protected as effectively using copyright.

So, in many respects, while Xerox did make a bit of money in the transaction, it didn't get the better part of the deal by a long shot, in much the same way the native Americans didn't exactly do well when they sold Manhattan for some glass beads.

But ultimately my earlier point was that Jobs never made a secret that he felt he'd essentially gotten away with wholesale robbery (as evidenced in the interview clip above), which while technically deemed legal, does erode any 'moral high ground', for me, Apple may have whenever they talk about theft.
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I just read Apple now wants the galaxy 3 also forbidden in the U.S. ? wow they just keep attacking!
Apple have been losing market share to Android for a while (although this had largely stabilized). This wouldn't be so bad except that it's not just techies and students who are buying Android, but Apple's market (non-technical ABC1's) have begun to be wooed by Samsung's offerings, and I suspect that this is what scares them.

So these injunctions are ultimately more about protecting market share, by slowing down Android market growth, giving Apple time to regain the creative lead they previously had.

Samsung did copy Apple, but I can also understand why; if you want to steal Apple customers, you want to be able to offer them something that does not have too steep a learning curve, so having an interface that they are already largely familiar with is a good idea.

The current patent wars will ultimately result in both good and bad; good in that it will fuel more innovation as copying becomes more trouble than it's worth. Bad in that it will stifle choice in the short term and later on will further lock people into using one OS, because of the learning curve required to switch. Additionally, the ruling in the US has been seen as US protectionism in Asia and this may well result in a spate of tit-for-tat rulings.

The biggest winner though is probably Microsoft. Any ban on Samsung devices will mean that WP7/8 is more likely to pick up new customers and at this stage they desperately need this, given that most of the customers that they have won over to date have been from Symbian rather than iOS or Android.

However, the days of when the iPhone was the only game in town are over and that is definitely a good thing. Anyone who would have developed for the iPhone three years ago will remember the draconian and often arbitrary nature of Apple's rules when publishing to iTunes. As Android took off, many of these rules began to be relaxed, rather than drive developers into developing for the enemy.

For consumers too, this has been a good thing as Apple has been forced to continue innovating so as to differentiate itself from competitors.

Still, the patent wars are anything but over and we're likely to see many more cases, bans, injunctions and appeals before they are - the Apple vs Microsoft case took six years to be resolved after all, and that was a far less complex affair, in many respects.
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Old 04.09.2012, 10:44
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

I still cannot get my head around that we are discussing the hardware design of Apple... I love their stuff but there is really not much of it during the last decade that was not "heavily inspired" by 60s Braun stuff...

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  #69  
Old 04.09.2012, 10:57
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

Ultimately, I see this as going the same way as Mac vs. PC, USB vs. Firewire, etc, etc.

Apple has a strategy of developing an amazing, "complete package" product that can be taken out of the box, plugged in, and immediately and easily used. However, Apple has also taken the strategy of trying to control everything about that product, from hardware to software.

The primary advantage that PC had over Macintosh was that there were more manufacturers designing and innovating for the PC, because the architecture was more or less open source. This created more choices for the end user as well as keeping the upgrade costs extremely low compared to the comparable Apple products of the 80's and 90's. Case in point- I remember helping my father open our 386 PC to add more RAM and install our first CD-ROM drive. My friends who had Macs either had to do without or buy an entirely new Macintosh. To this day, the only way I can upgrade a Macintosh is to add memory or by plugging something into an open USB port.

iPhone/Pod/Pad all exacerbate this, IMHO, disadvantage, in that the only upgrade path available for these devices is through software (at least with Symbian/Windows Phone/Andriod you can add/upgrade a memory card or sometimes a battery). Eventually the hardware will become obsolete, and you will have to purchase an entirely new device.

Over time, Apple products will continue to lose their technological advantage over Android, because, while Apple is the largest company, Apple is not bigger than Samsung, HTC, LG, Sony, etc etc. combined. Soon, we will see the combined inertia of the Android developers push past Apple, and the iphone will join the Treo as a pioneering also-ran.
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Old 04.09.2012, 11:21
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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Soon, we will see the combined inertia of the Android developers push past Apple, and the iphone will join the Treo as a pioneering also-ran.
Apple is not so easily pushed aside. We now have a Linux vs Windows style situation with Android vs iOS. But worse. Android isn't yet superior to iOS in terms of efficiency, which matters a lot. Apple is able to use less powerful hardware and deliver more end user power, with smaller batteries etc. There is the fragmentation effect with Android, as with the many Linux distros, that greatly weakens the benefit to average Joes, but increases diversity for techies.

Java really needs and should have had an advantage over Objective C, but it became fat. Objective C is pretty archaic, and this helps with efficiency. Plus iOS borrows so heavily off Mac OS, it was a tried and tested, efficient 30 year old product from Day 1. A streamlined interpreted language like BCPL could have provided an advantage for Android, and was what people thought about when they originally said interpreted Java would be good for mobile devices. With Oracle controlling Java that is another obstacle to success for Android.

The technology issues are a bit like trying to make a better CPU than Intel. You can, but the fabrication technology of Intel is better, and this largely negates any architectural advantages in the short term, allowing Intel to fix, redesign, equal, and then take the lead back, even after making big mistakes.
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Old 04.09.2012, 11:54
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

Jellybean is pretty slick in terms of how slick the UI works and that really is only a incremental change on ICS so Android is getting there. I know plenty of people back home in the UK who are ditching the iPhone due to it's inflexibility and the fact is that their devices end up being more of the same. Some of also sighted the fact that all these patent cases are off putting, not my words but true.
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  #72  
Old 04.09.2012, 11:56
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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Soon, we will see the combined inertia of the Android developers push past Apple, and the iphone will join the Treo as a pioneering also-ran.
I don't think so. iOS and Android exist in pretty different ecosystems that will continue to attract different customers.

iOS is a far more closed system; device fragmentation (which plagues Android) is non-existent, allowing for more consistent user experience. Software is vetted, controlled and has more limited access to the device's capabilities - meaning that iOS users need worry less about malicious software than Android users; something which naturally benefits non-technical customers. App revenue is also easier to earn through iOS, who's customers are significantly more likely to part with money than on Android, and this too is a factor as it influences available software.

And, let's face it, the iPhone is also a bit of a giffen good. If you own one, you've spent a lot more than you would for an Android phone and many will buy it simply as a status symbol.

Both will continue to survive for the foreseeable future as they do have their own distinct markets. Much of the reason for the present legal wrangles is because Samsung has increasingly encroached on Apple's market; I've seen it myself when a friend (non-technical, well-paid professional) saw my spanking new S3 when it came out and so bought one the next day, despite being a devotee of the iPhone. But to presume his encroachment will result in the end of iOS would be a gross exaggeration.

The big question now is if there is enough room for a third OS in the market. Microsoft are making inroads, but nowhere near where they originally wanted to. Blackberry, on the other hand, is presently in free-fall and, IMHO, it's touch and go whether they can reverse this before one of the above three decides to go after their corporate market base in a big way (something which to date has been largely ignored, in favour of the consumer market).

Were I Apple or Google (or one of the major Android device manufacturers, such as Samsung or HTC), I'd be tempted to buy RIM and drop their OS in favour of my own, while maintaining legacy support for a few years. Microsoft, on the other hand, does not need this as they ultimately already have a foothold in this market with Windows, Office and - most importantly - Exchange.

All fun and games...
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  #73  
Old 04.09.2012, 12:16
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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And, let's face it, the iPhone is also a bit of a giffen good. If you own one, you've spent a lot more than you would for an Android phone and many will buy it simply as a status symbol.
I thought, the S3 (or whatever was the current model) is the new status symbol?
I wanted an iPhone, because I wanted to have my contacts synced (from my Mac)
I didn't want to use google for everything.
And I don't use Google for mail.

Also, the iPhone has proven to be very low-maintenance, updates applying smoothly. I don't need to do any sysadmin on it other than charging.

The only thing that I recently learned that does not work and which is kind of sad (though I personally don't need it) is that there does not seem to be an OpenVPN client for iOS.


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Were I Apple or Google (or one of the major Android device manufacturers, such as Samsung or HTC), I'd be tempted to buy RIM and drop their OS in favour of my own, while maintaining legacy support for a few years. Microsoft, on the other hand, does not need this as they ultimately already have a foothold in this market with Windows, Office and - most importantly - Exchange.
As the CEO of RIM has pointed out: the people who use RIM now do so because they don't want Android - and neither iOS nor Windows Mobile.
Do you think Apple could e.g. buy HTC (from their petty cash) and "convince" their Win-Mobile users to switch?
It doesn't work that way - and that's precisely the reason Apple doesn't usually do big M&As and why they have 100B in the bank.
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  #74  
Old 04.09.2012, 12:53
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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I thought, the S3 (or whatever was the current model) is the new status symbol?
Hence my point, and anecdote, on Samsung encroaching on Apple's market.
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I wanted an iPhone, because I wanted to have my contacts synced (from my Mac)
I didn't want to use google for everything.
And I don't use Google for mail.
I see and agree with your point. If you're already a Mac user, the iPhone makes sense. As to using Google for everything, neither OS makes it easy to not use Google/Apple for most if not all of your needs.
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Also, the iPhone has proven to be very low-maintenance, updates applying smoothly. I don't need to do any sysadmin on it other than charging.
Again, very much part of their user base; non-technical, typically older, more style concious and with more disposable income. The iPhone is perfect for the user who really does not care how it works, just cares that it works. Android better suits more technophilic users, who are more concerned that they can do what they want with their device than the hassle of doing what they want with their device.
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The only thing that I recently learned that does not work and which is kind of sad (though I personally don't need it) is that there does not seem to be an OpenVPN client for iOS.
There's quite a few such apps that you just won't get for the iPhone (a decent, or any, BitTorrent client for example, last time I checked). Then again, there's plenty of apps on iOS you won't get on Android - largely because app sales revenue is much, much lower.
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As the CEO of RIM has pointed out: the people who use RIM now do so because they don't want Android - and neither iOS nor Windows Mobile.
He also claimed that RIM was going to be the third major OS in mobile, so I'd be careful about believing what he says.
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Do you think Apple could e.g. buy HTC (from their petty cash) and "convince" their Win-Mobile users to switch?
No, you misunderstood; actually I suggested Apple, Google, Samsung or HTC could buy RIM, so as to grab their corporate customer base. And the way RIM is going, they may soon all be able to buy it with petty cash.
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Old 04.09.2012, 14:29
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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Again, very much part of their user base; non-technical,
I'm a unix sysadmin.
But I need a phone with 100% uptime and I don't have to time to dabble with yet another thing that almost works.
I though of getting one of those "OpenMoko" thingies back when they were announced - but I lost interest in that after I realized that most of the "interesting" stuff is in the hands of the telco anyway...

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There's quite a few such apps that you just won't get for the iPhone (a decent, or any, BitTorrent client for example, last time I checked).
Who would want to have a BitTorrent client on a phone?
OK, so you can download the CentOS6 ISOs and burn them to DVD (recently saw reviews for hardware to do just that: burn a DVD from a phone or tablet...).


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Then again, there's plenty of apps on iOS you won't get on Android - largely because app sales revenue is much, much lower.
He also claimed that RIM was going to be the third major OS in mobile, so I'd be careful about believing what he says.
No, you misunderstood; actually I suggested Apple, Google, Samsung or HTC could buy RIM, so as to grab their corporate customer base. And the way RIM is going, they may soon all be able to buy it with petty cash.
Apple doesn't work that way. In their line of thinking, there's no point in acquiring a competitor with shrinking market-share - because they're going to drive that competitor out of business anyway a couple of quarters down the road.
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Old 04.09.2012, 14:43
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

Sorry, but I hate to disturb the IT party - a couple of years ago was I one of the product managers for mobile phones at a large telco and I can tell you that people do not buy a phone because of its OS. Maybe a SysAdmin does, but the other 99.9% do not.

People do not buy a phone for this or that feature either - that's the reasoning they come up with when trying to explain to themselves why they "need" an iPhone or S3.

Sorry, but that is really basic consumer marketing. People buy high end phones because it is still a status symbol. Even if you really just use your phone for calls and SMS - who would want to be seen with a five year old candybar feature phone? You'd not impress your mates.

If the next greatest thing happens to be a Samsung as it is right now (at least till the iPhone 5 comes out) - can any manufacturer win fairly big market shares in fairly short time. People are on two year contracts, so anyone who manages to keep on top for six months or longer wins a lot.

Just as a reminder: Five years ago was the market dominated by a company called Nokia. They make phones... when have you seen one of those around? (last time I have seen more than one in a room was when visiting a Microsoft office...)
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Old 04.09.2012, 15:24
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Re: Jury: Samsung should pay Apple more than $1 billion

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I'm a unix sysadmin.
So what? Just because the iPhone's principle market is non-technical, that hardly means that technical users can't buy it.
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But I need a phone with 100% uptime and I don't have to time to dabble with yet another thing that almost works.
I can't speak for others, but I've never had any issues with Android, as far as working 100% of the time, is concerned. At this stage, there's actually very little difference between the two OS's, TBH.
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Who would want to have a BitTorrent client on a phone?
Someone who wants to download directly to their phone?
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Apple doesn't work that way. In their line of thinking, there's no point in acquiring a competitor with shrinking market-share - because they're going to drive that competitor out of business anyway a couple of quarters down the road.
Perhaps not, but I never really suggested they would, only that they or one of the other players could well do so.
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Sorry, but I hate to disturb the IT party - a couple of years ago was I one of the product managers for mobile phones at a large telco and I can tell you that people do not buy a phone because of its OS.
That's essentially what I was saying in my previous posts. There's very little between the two OS's at this stage - at least as far as far as your average man on the Clapham omnibus is concerned.
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Sorry, but that is really basic consumer marketing. People buy high end phones because it is still a status symbol. Even if you really just use your phone for calls and SMS - who would want to be seen with a five year old candybar feature phone? You'd not impress your mates.
I'd agree, and already said so. I would still think that those consumers who genuinely don't care what you can do with it as long as it does what it says on the tin, will still tend twoards the iPhone, while those who are more interested in what you can make it do, will tend twoards Android, but you're probably right that the fashion factor is undoubtedly the greatest variable.
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Just as a reminder: Five years ago was the market dominated by a company called Nokia. They make phones... when have you seen one of those around? (last time I have seen more than one in a room was when visiting a Microsoft office...)
In fairness, I do think the OS was a factor in their market demise. By the time the N97 came out Symbian was seriously looking dated and that turned off many consumers (the weight of the thing didn't help neither).

You're right though, you'll see precious few any more outside of Wallisellen nowadays.
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