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  #81  
Old 07.09.2012, 16:35
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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You mean apart from asking people to read news sorces before commenting with complete conjecture ?
& I'll continue to ridicule armchair know it all's as i see fit thanks.
Some of us ARE reading the news stories. The news stories are contradictory and don't yet contain the full story. We are now discussing the info we are getting and making conjectures.

Please add your conjecture below. Thanks.

Last edited by lost_inbroad; 07.09.2012 at 17:22. Reason: inappropriate content
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  #82  
Old 08.09.2012, 06:59
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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Now for the conspiracy theory. One of the guys is an Iraqui engineer and the French Cyclist works with the nuclear industry
So that you now have
- an Iraqi engineer
- a Swedish woman
- a French cyclist working for the nuclear industry
- a Royal Air Force chap detecting the whole lot

a perfect thing for a crime novel writer
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  #83  
Old 08.09.2012, 07:04
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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From what I read, the local Gendarmerie contacted the Police at the National level who then flew in forensic experts from Paris. It was this delay in waiting for them to arrive that cause the eight hour wait.
Nothing sensational. You first of course (this is why the RAF man called the fireworkers/ambulance first) have the
- Police municipale
- then the Gendarmerie Nationale
-- but as they above are NOT entitled to do the investigations
- the Police Judiciaire (Paris), lead by an inspector and reinforced by an
investigation-judge (from Paris of course) and some specialists from the CRS


************************************************** *************************

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I agree with Marton - the Police were bloody amateurs - or French Police procedure is rubbish.

What they would do in the U.K. is wade in first and check all bodies for signs of life and confirm that no one was hidden under another body.
(Gunshot victim can remain alive for hours).
Then, when that is done, the scene can be locked down for forensics.

Do doctors in hospitals use thermal cameras to see if people are alive?
The Gendarmerie Nationale is NOT entitled to do investigations in a crime case. No amateurs at all. But not even the "Préfet" can do anything. They have to call in the authorized chaps from Paris. In the U.K., every policeman is fully entitled to start basic checks and then can decide further. In Switzerland, municipal or local cantonal police will call in, after having done basic checks, the relevant people of the Cantonal Police (Crime section) and things of course will stay in the hands of the Canton. But it happened in the French Republic.

Doctors in French hospitals work with everything existing, so that I cannot quite see your point in this

*************************************

You now may ask how things will go ahead ?
> the investigation judge will advise his superior in Paris
> the superior in Paris will give full authorities to the judge-in-charge
> the judge-in-charge will give full authority to the inspector of the Police Judiciaire
> the inspector now will try to fully co-operate with the local Police Municipale but
of course will keep powers in his hands

Last edited by Wollishofener; 08.09.2012 at 07:29.
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  #84  
Old 08.09.2012, 08:50
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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please continue to ridicule armchair know it alls but make sure you are facing the mirror when you do so
Go on then, genius - example of where I've claimed to 'know all' about something on this thread please?

No? Though not.

Now, run along and catch up with the rest of the pack so you can join in on the next thread you all choose to bray on.

(although, I note that your tasteless cluedo 'banter' has been removed from the thread)
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  #85  
Old 08.09.2012, 11:55
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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The Gendarmerie Nationale is NOT entitled to do investigations in a crime case.
It's actually a little bit more complex than that. French territory is divided in security zones, where either Gendarmerie or Police are in charge. There are very few overlaps and are regimented.
It means that the Gendarmerie does investigate quite many things, even being responsible for the procedures in a crime case. The expertise required in an investigation is a different thing: it can come from the Gendarmerie itself or it can be coordinated with police forces. Actually, both Gendarmerie and Police have scientific experts, the Gendarmerie ones are called IRCGN, the C in it meaning Criminal. Ironically, the IRCGN is also called police scientifique although it's not the Police but the Gendarmerie. It's a vocabulary problem, not procedure.
The mix Police/Gendarmerie in each investigation depends on technical and practical needs as well as on procedural administrative rules. In other words, every thing is possible and nowadays, the coordination is far easier and stress free than it used to be. Even if they still hate each other...
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  #86  
Old 08.09.2012, 13:50
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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The Gendarmerie Nationale is NOT entitled to do investigations in a crime case. No amateurs at all. But not even the "Préfet" can do anything. They have to call in the authorized chaps from Paris. In the U.K., every policeman is fully entitled to start basic checks and then can decide further. In Switzerland, municipal or local cantonal police will call in, after having done basic checks, the relevant people of the Cantonal Police (Crime section) and things of course will stay in the hands of the Canton. But it happened in the French Republic.


You're missing my point. I'm not talking about the investigation. I'm talking about preserving life which, in the U.K., for example, comes before a forensic investigation.

It appears that the windows/doors of the car were not opened and a thermal imaging camera was used to detect signs of life.

In my opinion (remember that), it's a flawed way of doing things and they should have done it like this:

Take some photos of the bullet holes in the windows then smash open the doors, and get in there and see if people are alive; get them to hospital if required and then lock down the crime scene.

Waving a thermal imaging camera around is (obviously) an ineffective way of looking for signs of life.
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  #87  
Old 08.09.2012, 13:55
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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In my opinion (remember that)
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I'm stating facts
Make your mind up, Tom.




By the way, just out of curiosity, Tom - where does all your expert knowledge come from? I mean are you ex-CID or forensics or something - I'll happily & humbly eat my words if it is something with more base than 'one of the regulars at my local pub was a copper'
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  #88  
Old 08.09.2012, 14:02
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

I think I made it clear enough (even for you) where I was stating my opinion.

What is it exactly that you have got yourself confused about?
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  #89  
Old 08.09.2012, 14:07
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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By the way, just out of curiosity, Tom - where does all your expert knowledge come from? I mean are you ex-CID or forensics or something - I'll happily & humbly eat my words if it is something with more base than 'one of the regulars at my local pub was a copper'
All I said that was preserving life (in the U.K.) takes precedence over preserving a crime scene for forensic evidence gathering.

I thought that kind of thing was common knowledge.

P.S. Can you stop repeatedly editing your posts every five minutes? What you've got to say really isn't that important, or even that interesting, to be honest.
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  #90  
Old 08.09.2012, 14:13
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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What you've got to say really isn't that important, or even that interesting, to be honest.
Is that your opinion, or are you stating facts this time?
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  #91  
Old 08.09.2012, 14:41
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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Take some photos of the bullet holes in the windows then smash open the doors, and get in there and see if people are alive; get them to hospital if required and then lock down the crime scene.
According to the BBC story, each victim was observed at the time to have had at least one gunshot to the head. It might have been a fair assessment that life was long extinct. I know some gunshot wounds to the head are survivable but it must have been conclusive enough for even the local plod to realise that brains spilled on the upholstery = dead.

Either way, there's no bringing them back now and their efforts are most likely centred around the two little girls and their welfare as well as finding out who did this and why, so it can be brought to a conclusion.

Any investigation into the police procedure would be carried out as a lower priority (although the Daily Mail might throw everything it's got into launching it's own campaign ).
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  #92  
Old 08.09.2012, 14:59
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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(although the Daily Mail might throw everything it's got into launching it's own campaign ).
This tragedy is bingo! for them: English victims in France. That's years of money-bringing French bashing secured.
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  #93  
Old 08.09.2012, 15:34
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

I'm a bit of a true crime junkie (I'm sad to admit) and this is certainly not the first time people have been declared dead without having to open the car or disturb the crime scene. I would imagine since the RAF guy actually had training in first aid or whatever, seeing how he took care of the little girl, if he though the people were alive I believe he would have done something.

I guess we just have to give them the benefit of the doubt considering we (thankfully) weren't at the crime scene nor have pictures of it.

What (sort of) bothers me is that had to go all the way to Paris to find a forensics team. Maybe they don't have that many crimes (???), but I think they need more forensics teams. Lyon is only what 1.5hrs away and probably big enough to warrant a forensics team of it's own.
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Old 08.09.2012, 15:43
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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What (sort of) bothers me is that had to go all the way to Paris to find a forensics team. Maybe they don't have that many crimes (???), but I think they need more forensics teams. Lyon is only what 1.5hrs away and probably big enough to warrant a forensics team of it's own.
Not forensic, "police scientifique", only the experts like in the TV films are in Paris. Autopsy and postmortem procedures can be done many places around the country.
Securing a crime scene eight hours before getting the scientific squads get on it is nothing special in any larger country. Not every Land has its own in Germany either. It's really extraordinary that there was a little girl so well hidden in this case. If I was perfect myself, I would definitely make them a lot of reproaches. I really would. Honest.
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  #95  
Old 08.09.2012, 15:51
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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Not forensic, "police scientifique", only the experts like in the TV films are in Paris. Autopsy and postmortem procedures can be done many places around the country.
Securing a crime scene eight hours before getting the scientific squads get on it is nothing special in any larger country. Not every Land has its own in Germany either. It's really extraordinary that there was a little girl so well hidden in this case. If I was perfect myself, I would definitely make them a lot of reproaches. I really would. Honest.
Thanks for the clarification. I still think more than one of these specialist teams should be available in France. Lyon should be able to support one was well.
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Old 08.09.2012, 16:47
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Thanks for the clarification. I still think more than one of these specialist teams should be available in France. Lyon should be able to support one was well.
Probably can't win can they?

Maybe there is some sort of team nearer, say for dealing with more 'run of the mill' murders/crimes etc. But given the severity & weirdness, not to mention the obvious international connection & media interest in this case, maybe it was thought better to bring in the best.

If a [possible] Lyon team had handled it for example, no doubt lots of you would be pissing on that decision as well, asking why they didn't bring in the Paris lot sooner.
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Old 08.09.2012, 17:07
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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You're missing my point. I'm not talking about the investigation. I'm talking about preserving life which, in the U.K., for example, comes before a forensic investigation.

It appears that the windows/doors of the car were not opened and a thermal imaging camera was used to detect signs of life.

In my opinion (remember that), it's a flawed way of doing things and they should have done it like this:

Take some photos of the bullet holes in the windows then smash open the doors, and get in there and see if people are alive; get them to hospital if required and then lock down the crime scene.

Waving a thermal imaging camera around is (obviously) an ineffective way of looking for signs of life.
Oh they said the RAF cycler broke the window and turned off the running car engine? so a window was broken.. but wonder how they were shot in the head and the car riddled with bullets and no windows broken, side windows usually shadder into a thousand pieces?
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  #98  
Old 08.09.2012, 17:14
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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So that you now have
- an Iraqi engineer
- a Swedish woman
- a French cyclist working for the nuclear industry
- a Royal Air Force chap detecting the whole lot

a perfect thing for a crime novel writer
Hey, I got deleted posts and a shitty PM from a mod for posting something similar .

Cunch of bunts.
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Old 08.09.2012, 17:31
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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Thanks for the clarification. I still think more than one of these specialist teams should be available in France. Lyon should be able to support one was well.
If they take the TGV they will be there faster then if they drive over from Lyon in bad traffic. Just not enough heinous murders to justify top notch CSi type folks available on speed dial.

Now, any more actual news, to this news?
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Old 08.09.2012, 17:46
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Re: French shooting killing 4 British

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but wonder how they were shot in the head and the car riddled with bullets and no windows broken, side windows usually shadder into a thousand pieces?

Oh, for the love of god!

The car was not riddled with bullets. There were no other bullet holes on the car aside from the holes in the windows where the shots had been fired through - into the heads of the victims.


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