Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19.09.2012, 19:38
Sbrinz's Avatar
RIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 11,866
Groaned at 563 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 11,548 Times in 5,941 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

I believe we should leave Afghanistan as soon as possible. They don't like us, we are feeding their corruption, it is expensive.
The supply of heroin has not diminished, and why, oh why, are we still there? Good viewpoint here,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19634728
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Sbrinz for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 20.09.2012, 08:05
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 778
Groaned at 73 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,499 Times in 710 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

I think you are still there because the moment you leave, the Karzai regime is not going to survive much longer than did the Communist regime after the Soviets left in 1989.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank leonie for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 20.09.2012, 08:33
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,023
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,560 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Thank you for posting. Until they equip the Afghan military forces with camouflaged combat fatigues instead of their bright blue overalls, people are going to continue to get hurt.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 20.09.2012, 08:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zurich Unterland
Posts: 3,315
Groaned at 145 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 4,850 Times in 1,930 Posts
smoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

And I am now wondering about HOW did Orson Welles`s fantasy come to him, in 1949, to write that book "1984" .... it is just SO like America today!

"Wars and rumours of wars"......? There is always a "war" being fought somewhere?

And there are still homeless people, and hungry people, living in the country of the "mighty power" who continually rush about attempting to "help" other "less fortunate" countries.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank smoky for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 20.09.2012, 09:04
MsWorWoo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Winti
Posts: 1,933
Groaned at 57 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,161 Times in 1,187 Posts
MsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond reputeMsWorWoo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

We are getting a nice gas pipeline route.

Personally, I believe if you make a mess in someone elses house you should tidy before you leave. We made quite a mess, OK, it was. essy before we came round but still.
There is increasing evidence of taliban increasing influence, not good. Unless we can ship all women and non pustans (sp?) out we should try our best to make sure that they are not going to be destroyed.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MsWorWoo for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 20.09.2012, 09:11
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,618
Groaned at 416 Times in 279 Posts
Thanked 17,916 Times in 5,538 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

That's a tough one. As a woman, I want someone to protect the female population in Afghanistan. The women and children seem to be the victims in all of this. Isn't there a way to spray their crops to make men impotent?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank olygirl for this useful post:
This user groans at olygirl for this post:
  #7  
Old 20.09.2012, 09:45
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,023
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,560 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
That's a tough one. As a woman, I want someone to protect the female population in Afghanistan. The women and children seem to be the victims in all of this. Isn't there a way to spray their crops to make men impotent?
Widespread death and carnage have left tens of thousands of men pretty impotent by default wouldn't you say?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 20.09.2012, 12:30
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Geneva
Posts: 627
Groaned at 64 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 447 Times in 238 Posts
saiya-jin has earned the respect of manysaiya-jin has earned the respect of manysaiya-jin has earned the respect of many
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

"What are we achieving in Afghanistan?"

Somebody who even asks this kind of question must have serious issues with accepting harsh reality about their government's actions and should put off those pinky glasses for a while...
All the answers are very simple, but if somebody believes that there is whole army out there for 10 years to actually help those people who were never defeated and don't want anybody's help, especially not american one, then well... this world must be quite a mystery to them
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank saiya-jin for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 20.09.2012, 12:39
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,601
Groaned at 570 Times in 483 Posts
Thanked 20,853 Times in 10,954 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
"What are we achieving in Afghanistan?"

Somebody who even asks this kind of question must have serious issues with accepting harsh reality about their government's actions and should put off those pinky glasses for a while...
All the answers are very simple, but if somebody believes that there is whole army out there for 10 years to actually help those people who were never defeated and don't want anybody's help, especially not american one, then well... this world must be quite a mystery to them
I thought you were in Afghanistan to stop the Taliban allowing al-kaida to run training camps & churn out trained terrorists?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 20.09.2012, 12:42
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,459
Groaned at 175 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 4,947 Times in 1,902 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
"What are we achieving in Afghanistan?"

Somebody who even asks this kind of question must have serious issues with accepting harsh reality about their government's actions and should put off those pinky glasses for a while...
All the answers are very simple, but if somebody believes that there is whole army out there for 10 years to actually help those people who were never defeated and don't want anybody's help, especially not american one, then well... this world must be quite a mystery to them
Do you think that all Afghani's - men and women - had a more progressive future under the Taliban regime that goverened previously then ?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:35
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Geneva
Posts: 627
Groaned at 64 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 447 Times in 238 Posts
saiya-jin has earned the respect of manysaiya-jin has earned the respect of manysaiya-jin has earned the respect of many
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
Do you think that all Afghani's - men and women - had a more progressive future under the Taliban regime that goverened previously then ?
Of course not, but there are so many more or less drastically oppressive regimes out there, and almost nobody cares. With some US is quite happy to do business as long as they accept who is the boss. I don't think most afghans now have progressive future at all, their life is just misery. Being blasted by US drones, suicide attackers, land mines, caught between fire, accidentally shot by mistake, future just in opium, non-existing central government outside capital that will fall immediately after withdraw etc. Not much improvement to me...
One thing is officially proclaimed reasoning in media behind this war campaign, other is harsh day-to-day reality of common people. Why do so many western people think that their set of rules and moral standards should be applied to everyone, everywhere without exception?
I believe there are many parts in that country, where people when asked would rather change to previous Taliban regime without war then what they have now. I am personally not happy about that, but I'm able to respect that.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank saiya-jin for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:47
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,910
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,189 Times in 3,402 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
Thank you for posting. Until they equip the Afghan military forces with camouflaged combat fatigues instead of their bright blue overalls, people are going to continue to get hurt.
Thanks Assassin !Having a son which will be deploid to afghanistan in 4 weeks,now I can tell him what he has to whatch out forWe should have never ever be there in the first place

Last edited by cannut; 20.09.2012 at 17:37.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank cannut for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 20.09.2012, 14:59
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,910
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,189 Times in 3,402 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
That's a tough one. As a woman, I want someone to protect the female population in Afghanistan. The women and children seem to be the victims in all of this. Isn't there a way to spray their crops to make men impotent?
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/british-...-base-1.963891
Stop worrying
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 20.09.2012, 15:10
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,223
Groaned at 2,454 Times in 1,776 Posts
Thanked 39,316 Times in 18,533 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
And I am now wondering about HOW did Orson Welles`s fantasy come to him, in 1949, to write that book "1984" .... it is just SO like America today!
Umm, it was Eric Blair, aka George Orwell, not Orson Welles!

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 20.09.2012, 15:20
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: north
Posts: 6,132
Groaned at 218 Times in 138 Posts
Thanked 5,100 Times in 2,636 Posts
rob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond reputerob1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

long term - nothing, short term- a little bit more
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank rob1 for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 20.09.2012, 15:49
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,459
Groaned at 175 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 4,947 Times in 1,902 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
Of course not, but there are so many more or less drastically oppressive regimes out there, and almost nobody cares. With some US is quite happy to do business as long as they accept who is the boss. I don't think most afghans now have progressive future at all, their life is just misery. Being blasted by US drones, suicide attackers, land mines, caught between fire, accidentally shot by mistake, future just in opium, non-existing central government outside capital that will fall immediately after withdraw etc. Not much improvement to me...
One thing is officially proclaimed reasoning in media behind this war campaign, other is harsh day-to-day reality of common people. Why do so many western people think that their set of rules and moral standards should be applied to everyone, everywhere without exception?
I believe there are many parts in that country, where people when asked would rather change to previous Taliban regime without war then what they have now. I am personally not happy about that, but I'm able to respect that.
Which regime is more oppressive than the Taliban, I thought they were just about at the top of oppression ?

The invasion I think was because as was said they were training up terrorists who blew up western targets and were warned previously that if they didnt stop doing then the US would invade.

Doesn't make it correct, it's an appalling situation but views are mixed it seems as to whether its better or worse - here the guardian interviewed some afghan's 10 years on: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...rsary-invasion.

It's unreasonable to say everyone is scared of being blown up by drones as the actual number of people killed like that is low relative to the population so thats scare mongering in the same way that saying "it was great under the taleban" is too far the other way.

What the future holds when the US and UK pull out we will see, but it will depend on the strength and training of the afghan army a lot surely. It is they that will need to stand on their own two feet.

As for imposing western values - I agree to an extent, you cant march on into places and say "you should be democratic right now" and force it on them, clearly thats unacceptable. But its not just black and white. Under the rule of Taleban, which had high levels of corruption, life was absolutely miserable if you weren't male, and there is a case for saying in such extreme circumstances that the population are not better off with an alternative system.

If a father beats his children so fiercely that when social services come round they say "we are fine and enjoying our lives" even though it is patently evident their existence is awful, do social services leave them be, or do they step in and try and change things ?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Mikers for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 20.09.2012, 16:00
Jobsrobertsharpii's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Z-U-R-I-C-H
Posts: 2,335
Groaned at 173 Times in 124 Posts
Thanked 3,384 Times in 1,536 Posts
Jobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond reputeJobsrobertsharpii has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Afghanistan is a perfect example of a country that was created on paper by foreign powers, simply because something had to exist there. Lines were drawn on a map, with very little respect for the culture, traditions, and desires of the people living there. It was all dictated by geography and how much territory the occupying armies could control.

I don't know what the solution is; that country is and has been a mess for a very long time. I'm all for allowing the Afghan population sort it out for themselves, as long as that doesn't include genocide or people coming from Afghanistan to cause mayhem in other parts of the world.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jobsrobertsharpii for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 20.09.2012, 16:15
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 14
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
sarahmm has no particular reputation at present
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

it wasn't always like this. The PDPA brought in greater equality for women in the 70s. (although influenced by the soviets).
Better hospitals were built, roads.
It is interesting how since the Taliban, how far the country has gone back(of course under the pressure of the group)

I think what happened there was there was such a divergence from Islamic principles, with the government enforcing more western values, that led to the downfall of the more liberal agenda.


However, as much as everybody would like peace in Afganistan, there will always be an opposition fighting for control. Without the Taliban challenging the Afgan Army, there would be another group in its place. Our countries are no better(America, Britian).

For the sake of our own troops we should leave, but the problem of peace will not be achieved either by staying or leaving.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank sarahmm for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 20.09.2012, 16:19
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Geneva
Posts: 627
Groaned at 64 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 447 Times in 238 Posts
saiya-jin has earned the respect of manysaiya-jin has earned the respect of manysaiya-jin has earned the respect of many
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
Which regime is more oppressive than the Taliban, I thought they were just about at the top of oppression ?
...
North Korea? Most of Somalia under Al-shahab rule (at least now)? Syria? Yemen? Mali? It's not easy to compare such regimes, but maybe there are few in Africa which are not so cool.
Posting UK interview asking somebody there if they are happy after 10 years... I wrote something about pink glasses UK is seen as an aggressor there, and you cannot seriously believe public media in given country on topics like wars given country is waging somewhere else. I am sure Al-Jazeera can have dozens of contradictory interviews, and who is right or wrong? Probably both...
Life or ordinary people didn't change much, don't be fooled. Women still have miserable life there. What you usually see are reports from around Kabul, but that's world on it's own independent from rest of country. Illusion of government friendly to west (well, installed and kept alive by west), some extra women rights etc.

Look, I understand there were wrong things going on. It were.
BUT - this didn't change much. From public executions on football fields to drones/accident shootings (taliban is dressed like civilians, and many soldiers are trigger-happy types after all the stress). How many of these will get reported? Just few. Many helmet cam videos I saw from there included shooting some farm boy who was in sight when some unit was attacked. And there is much more that is seen only by soldiers there, and it stays there.
The problem is, even quite big army cannot win there. They are winning last 10 years, that's what news say. But somehow there are regions that US don't dare enter on land. Regular army cannot win against partisan war, not against such determination they face there. Military and civilian leaders of course know this, so obviously the reason to stay is far from helping afghan citizens, which just suffer from living in war zone.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank saiya-jin for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 20.09.2012, 16:29
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 2,459
Groaned at 175 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 4,947 Times in 1,902 Posts
Mikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond reputeMikers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are we achieving in Afghanistan?

Quote:
View Post
North Korea? Most of Somalia under Al-shahab rule (at least now)? Syria? Yemen? Mali? It's not easy to compare such regimes, but maybe there are few in Africa which are not so cool.
Posting UK interview asking somebody there if they are happy after 10 years... I wrote something about pink glasses UK is seen as an aggressor there, and you cannot seriously believe public media in given country on topics like wars given country is waging somewhere else. I am sure Al-Jazeera can have dozens of contradictory interviews, and who is right or wrong? Probably both...
Life or ordinary people didn't change much, don't be fooled. Women still have miserable life there. What you usually see are reports from around Kabul, but that's world on it's own independent from rest of country. Illusion of government friendly to west (well, installed and kept alive by west), some extra women rights etc.

Look, I understand there were wrong things going on. It were.
BUT - this didn't change much. From public executions on football fields to drones/accident shootings (taliban is dressed like civilians, and many soldiers are trigger-happy types after all the stress). How many of these will get reported? Just few. Many helmet cam videos I saw from there included shooting some farm boy who was in sight when some unit was attacked. And there is much more that is seen only by soldiers there, and it stays there.
The problem is, even quite big army cannot win there. They are winning last 10 years, that's what news say. But somehow there are regions that US don't dare enter on land. Regular army cannot win against partisan war, not against such determination they face there. Military and civilian leaders of course know this, so obviously the reason to stay is far from helping afghan citizens, which just suffer from living in war zone.
North Korea and Somalia fair enough - these at cataclysmically failed states. Somalia has been warned by the US that its becoming an Al Qaeda training ground and they will do the same there if it progresses. Syria, Iran, these are bad but are they really as bad as the Taleban ?

putting aside the UK-as-aggressor part, which I fully agree with, in some areas the America and UK will be seen as invading, what do you think the alternative was ? I mean as a genuine question, not as a criticism. A country is training people to attack your country and does so to the tune of whatever it was, 3000 people. You then say "give us the bloke who did this, your harbouring him" and they say "no, get stuffed, we're going to carry on blowing you up". What was the alternative, just sit around and do nothing while they line up the next set ? If invading hasnt worked - which it looks like it might not have, what else do you do ?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Mikers for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
afghanistan




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What are we English bad at? Caviarchips General off-topic 50 05.09.2012 22:58
What decade are we in? Castro General off-topic 12 06.01.2011 17:26
We are not black sheep anymore... we are rats. Treverus Swiss politics/news 221 29.09.2010 23:38
we are what we do loumaca67 General off-topic 3 27.04.2009 16:55


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0