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  #81  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:04
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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But it's not the Amazon now is it? It's 400 frickin' trees in LA! I'm sure the biophysical elements of these 400 trees were working their damnedest to make sure that smog cloud can sit directly above the city for 6 months of the year.
Like I've been saying: it isn't the 400 trees that's bothering me. This is all just indicative of larger social trends of viewing nature's values as invisible. There are surely dozens if not hundreds of projects taking place right this second where "400 trees" are being sacrificed for some development that could easily be somewhere with smaller environmental impacts.

It's as if dozens of killer bees had you in their crossfire. You get stung by one and think, "well it's just one sting, it would take several before I need emergency treatment or die."

Yeah, that's right, I'm comparing the transfer of this shuttle to a killer bee attack!
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  #82  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:18
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Are you aware of the difference between a kettle and a pot?
you can't smoke kettle.
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  #83  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:19
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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400 trees a second are chopped down so we can look at fluffy bunny rabbits in Blick am Abend.

What difference do 400 in LA make?
Hi DB, long time no see, hope all's well.

Nice straw man there. Let me counter with another: I don't read Blick am Abend.

That aside, most, if not all, publishers use sustainable sources of "farmed" trees for their paper pulp. Similarly logging for the firewood piles you see on sale here are usually from managed sources (managed for sustainability).

Cutting down trees "just because they are in the way of a temporary parade" is very different to cutting down for a particular purpose. Any idea what will have happened to the trees that were cut down? I don't, but I'd be willing to bet they won't have been put to much use.

The concept of cutting down trees for a temporary event vs. for a particular purpose, is to my mind the issue. One might correctly say that compared to what is happening the rain forests this doesn't even register, and that would be correct. However, a lot of what is happening in the rain forests is driven by the locals' needs to make a living.

So, indeed, 400 is not such a big number. However also consider that these trees have/had a decorative function, replacing them with a sappling will not exactly result in the same effect - and if you think it isn't important, then cast back your mind to when you were in a city and compare to what it is now like in your country-side mansion in GL.
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  #84  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:19
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Extremely unlikely, not only because of the effort involved but the greater costs of transplanting established mature trees.
Fixed that for you.
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  #85  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:36
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

How anyone can care about this is truly beyond me. This was the Space Shuttle Endeavour for Christ’s sake! Perhaps the most incredible Engineering achievement ever made by man!

Imagine from launch this thing was going 120mph by the time its tail had cleared the launch tower. It had a 37 million horse power engine that could propel it to over 17,000mph whilst producing little more than water vapour as a result. What’s more, it was reusable. The mind boggles just looking at the numbers involved with the Space Shuttle. It deserves and demands its rightful resting place to educate and inspire future generations.

If environmentalists want a drum to bang in the area why don’t they take up the cause of Mono Lake? Or the 300+ mile aqueduct that has more or less in the process squeezed every last drop of water out of the once lush Owens Valley in order to satisfy LA’s thirst. Imagine Paris getting its water from Zürich just so its residents could keep their swimming pools topped up. Now that is a crime. But not 400 trees being cut down in the dump that is LA.
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  #86  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:46
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Fixed that for you.
Thanks but no. I meant risks. You can add costs to the mix, especially as they would be costly risks, but I was focusing merely on the risk of failure of transplanting mature trees vs saplings.
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  #87  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:52
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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How anyone can care about this is truly beyond me. This was the Space Shuttle Endeavour for Christ’s sake! Perhaps the most incredible Engineering achievement ever made by man!

Imagine from launch this thing was going 120mph by the time its tail had cleared the launch tower. It had a 37 million horse power engine that could propel it to over 17,000mph whilst producing little more than water vapour as a result. What’s more, it was reusable. The mind boggles just looking at the numbers involved with the Space Shuttle. It deserves and demands its rightful resting place to educate and inspire future generations.
Read the rest of the thread!!! (You can read? Right?) Nobody here questions the achievements of NASA re. the shuttle program!

Here we are discussing the necessity to cut 400 trees for a PARADE that did nothing to contribute to science.

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If environmentalists want a drum to bang in the area why don’t they take up the cause of Mono Lake? Or the 300+ mile aqueduct that has more or less in the process squeezed every last drop of water out of the once lush Owens Valley in order to satisfy LA’s thirst. Imagine Paris getting its water from Zürich just so its residents could keep their swimming pools topped up. Now that is a crime.
See one of my posts a few pages back: Should we list all things we care about in each post, just so that stupid people don't come and derail the thread by pointing to something else which is of concern.

Yes, people are starving, that is bad. The rainforests are cut down, hat is bad too, should I continue?

But cutting down 400 trees in a very polluted city is bad too!

Capische?

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Now that is a crime. But not 400 trees being cut down in the dump that is LA.
Yes it is,
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  #88  
Old 19.10.2012, 14:56
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

PEOPLE! What is going on here? What has EF become? Stop turning on each other and enjoy what made EF great!!


Cheap double meanings

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for beaver purposes?
hehehehehe
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  #89  
Old 19.10.2012, 15:00
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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But cutting down 400 trees in a very polluted city is bad too!

Not when they're replacing them with 800 trees.

Now, Petal, why don't you go and have a nice cup of fair trade tea and have a think about that?
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  #90  
Old 19.10.2012, 15:02
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Read the rest of the thread!!! (You can read? Right?)
At first I thought Mike's comments were a bit harsh and uncalled for...

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Not when they're replacing them with 800 trees.

Now, Petal, why don't you go and have a nice cup of fair trade tea and have a think about that?
But now I'm afraid I need to echo his sentiments.
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  #91  
Old 19.10.2012, 15:53
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

400 trees cut down one single time seems like small potatoes compared to the approximately 90 million that are cut each year to become Christmas trees. I will stay tuned for a thread on that in the near future.....

On a different note, it is probably best to try to make a difference within one's own circle of control rather than get overly irritated by something going on the other side of the globe which one likely can't influence or control.

Not saying that being passionate about worldwide causes is not worthwhile, just saying that it is rewarding to actually take action yourself, in the place where you are, and hopefully witness results as opposed to getting into an argument about the issue on an internet forum.
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  #92  
Old 19.10.2012, 15:54
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Not saying that being passionate about worldwide causes is not worthwhile, just saying that it is rewarding to actually take action yourself, in the place where you are, and hopefully witness results as opposed to getting into an argument about the issue on an internet forum.
Can't we do both?
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  #93  
Old 19.10.2012, 16:06
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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400 trees cut down one single time seems like small potatoes compared to the approximately 90 million that are cut each year to become Christmas trees. I will stay tuned for a thread on that in the near future.....
Not when there are 90 million planted to replace them for the following seasons...
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Old 19.10.2012, 16:08
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Can't we do both?
Certainly. I suppose I should have directed my comment more toward EPMike, since it seems he is getting most upset in this specific case (or he is most passionate, whichever you choose). My point is really only that doing something "concrete" will make one a bigger player in their cause rather than trying to change peoples' opinions or minds within the confines of an internet forum.

Just my opinion, which counts only as much as anyone else's here. Carry on.
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  #95  
Old 19.10.2012, 16:49
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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400 trees cut down one single time seems like small potatoes compared to the approximately 90 million that are cut each year to become Christmas trees. I will stay tuned for a thread on that in the near future.....
As far as I know in most western countries only trees planted to become Christmas trees are allowed to be sold as such. So no environmental harm done there! To the contrary. Where this is not yet mandatory, it should be.

Anyway, as with most threads, after the 4th - 5th page most has been said and it is useless to keep reading/writing the same over and over again. Some of us will keep saying that:
  • "even 1 tree cut for no reason is too much"
while others will keep repeating:
  • "not if 2 are planted in exchange and anyway, don't we have bigger problems in the world as destroying nature?".

Ok, that's it from me. I will head to my garden now (to cut some trees/ ok now quite, just to mow the lawn).

Have a nice weekend.
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  #96  
Old 19.10.2012, 17:00
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Not when there are 90 million planted to replace them for the following seasons...
The appropriate comparison would be replacing them with 180 million trees....
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Old 19.10.2012, 17:04
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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Read the rest of the thread!!! (You can read? Right?) Nobody here questions the achievements of NASA re. the shuttle program!

Here we are discussing the necessity to cut 400 trees for a PARADE that did nothing to contribute to science.






Yes it is,
Talking about reading .Go back and read the whole story ( can you read?) The trees in question were not cut down for a parade, they were cut down for the purpose to bring the shuttle to the end destination .

Last edited by cannut; 19.10.2012 at 18:37.
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Old 19.10.2012, 17:04
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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400 trees cut down one single time seems like small potatoes compared to the approximately 90 million that are cut each year to become Christmas trees. I will stay tuned for a thread on that in the near future.....
.
A lot of Christmas trees are actually from managed forests. When they plant forests they normally put in many more saplings than they want mature trees because they can never know which will survive and which won't. As these saplings grow, they are continuously thinned out to give the survîvors the space they need. So if these removed trees weren't sold as Christmas trees they would just be put through the shredder and made into compost mulch anyway. So the forestry impact of Christmas trees is virtually nil. Of course the energy needed to transport them is a different story, but that's why you should buy locally grown trees if available.

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The appropriate comparison would be replacing them with 180 million trees....
They actually replace they with quite a bit more than that (see my comments above).

As a young tree's chance of survival is often below 50%, replacing one by two is often insufficient.
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Old 19.10.2012, 17:44
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

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The trees in question were not cut down for a parade,
Yes they were.

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they were cut
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down for the purpose to bring the shutel to the end destination .
No they were not (at least not most of them).

Last edited by EPMike; 19.10.2012 at 20:10.
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  #100  
Old 19.10.2012, 17:55
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Re: 400 Trees vs. Endeavour parade

In the interest of being factual, ABC News reported here http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...-trees-be-cut/ that the trees were indeed cut in order that the shuttle could be moved from Los Angeles International Airport to the California Science Center.

From the article and worth mentioning is the following quote:

Rudolph confirmed that the CSC is focusing on trees that are already marked for removal by the city.
“In many areas the Endeavour project is removing trees already being considered for removal in the master plans of Inglewood and safety and transportation plans in Los Angeles,” he said. “We chose routes with this in mind. This includes 91 trees near LAX adjacent to the airport fence.”
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