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Old 15.11.2012, 22:17
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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I am fairly certain I've given you this, probably exactly this, before (of course, I could be misremembering, long afternoon with nephews and it's coming up on dinner time, brain doesn't work so well when tummy is growling ):

From Merriam-Webster Dictionary

greed



The only part of that which is subjective is "need" - how do you quantify how much someone else needs?

That's actually not so hard.

Everyone NEEDS someplace to live. So, you need to pay for your abode, one way or another (rent or buy).

In the US, the majority of people live in areas where housing and work are not in the same place, thus, most Americans NEED a vehicle. Once you have a car, you NEED to have auto insurance, as it is required by law.

Everyone NEEDS to eat, so you need money to buy food.

Everyone, sometime, gets SICK. So, everyone NEEDS to see the doctor. Doctor visits charge a lot of money, so in order to avoid having to do without food, a place to live, or a car, everyone NEEDS health coverage.


So, taking that all into consideration, employers NEED to pay their people enough money that they can have someplace reasonable to live, that they can get a car and auto insurance, they can buy food and they have access to health insurance.

To deny people any of that, in order to keep more money for yourself (when you already have all of your NEEDS met) is GREED.

Simple.
Not so simple.

Again, you gave a dictionary definition, correctly pointing out that the very DEFINITION of greed is SUBJECTIVE, but then miss the point entirely. Greed is a HORRIBLE word, with it's emotional connotations with the wealth-envy crowd. It implies a snap judgement about a person to describe them as "greedy.".

While there ARE individuals who accumulate money for the pure sake of accumulating money, THE VAST MAJORITY of the "rich" are people, no different than you or I. They want to have nice things for themselves, just as anyone else does. They want financial security against an unforeseen event. They want to give their children better (or at least as good) opportunities than they themselves had. Many of these people believe in and support things such as charities and environmental sustainability. Most of these people work just as hard as you or I, maybe (probably) harder. Many have sacrificed time with family and friends, or passed on vacations and nice things early in life in order to ensure financial independence later in life. Many of these people view their business or their career as their Magnum Opus, a businessman's Sistine Chapel, the product of their life's work and sacrifice.

These people take risks to achieve success. Many fail multiple times before succeeding. Individuals such as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did not operate in a vacuum, but contributed significantly to the financial success of numerous Microsoft and Apple employees, for example. Without these men and women being willing and able to take the risks (and reap the resulting rewards) to found their respective companies, there would be far fewer jobs in the world today. Without the "evil" robber barons of yesteryear, there would be no Carnegie-Mellon University, no Vanderbilt University. Without Henry Ford, automobiles would be custom coaches available to the few. I could go on...

When you slap all this with the label "greed" you insult all this, all the effort, sacrifice, tough decisions these people have made. You insult and discount all the amazing things that have been accomplished because of enterprising individuals having the means to achieve them. You discount all the money that goes into individual people's retirement funds. You insult the very people who do the best service to society that an individual can, to not be a burden upon that society. You insult the very people that move the economies of the world with their effort and sacrifice.

That's why "greed," when used in this way is such an obscenity and an insult.

As to the rest of your post- need entitles us to nothing. It does not give a group of individuals the moral right to use the government to pick the pockets of a second group.
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  #62  
Old 15.11.2012, 22:38
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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No, it doesn't have to be completely 'socialised' to be untied to employment. I often noted that the Finnish health care system was very similar to the US system where you have medicare/medicaid and then you have private health insurance. For example, when I was pregnant with my daughter, I wanted the second ultrasound to see what the baby's gender was. Unfortunately, it was summertime and at the public clinic, I got a pretty green ultrasound tech (because all the senior staff in Finland go on holiday for a month or two) and so came away without that desired bit of info. After that, I made an appointment at a private clinic that, in addition to informing me I'd be having a girl, also did a full 3-D scan and gave me a DVD of the session to take home. The Finnish healthcare, if I remember correctly, paid a small part of that visit and the rest was out of pocket but I was ok with that.

Of course, the taxation is much higher in Finland and, in a way, the public vs. private creates a bit of a have and have not kind of 2-tier medical system where those who can afford to pay go to much better equipped doctors and clinics but, overall, nobody goes without needed or acute care and the overall costs are lower. The downside is that everyone lives longer and, well, then we get into pension issues....but that's another thread.
So there is a base level of socialized medicine with the option to have private on top. Australia has a similar system although if you earn over a certain amount and don`t have private they tax you a bit more. I`m more than ok with socialized medicine but don`t see how it would work if you make people responsible for their own private insurance (with no socialized medicine), its now an option and in a country like the USA how many lower paid, young, otherwise healthy individuals are just going to risk it and pocket the cash. Much like not everyone has complete car insurance.
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  #63  
Old 15.11.2012, 23:01
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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Americans are not against it. The super-rich are.
You're not American, are you?

Tom
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  #64  
Old 15.11.2012, 23:15
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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Awesome... You, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao can go and start another failed country, but please leave mine alone.
I presume you live here where health care is mandated? You enjoy the benefits of a civilized nation, yet critique those of us who would like the same standards
As we have here for the USA...
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:17
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When you slap all this with the label "greed" you insult all this, all the effort, sacrifice, tough decisions these people have made. You insult and discount all the amazing things that have been accomplished because of enterprising individuals having the means to achieve them. You discount all the money that goes into individual people's retirement funds. You insult the very people who do the best service to society that an individual can, to not be a burden upon that society. You insult the very people that move the economies of the world with their effort and sacrifice.

That's why "greed," when used in this way is such an obscenity and an insult.

Some business owners are wonderful people, others are greedy scum. Yes, greedy. And others are simply dismissive of the humanity of those that work for them.

Lots of people work very hard and get nowhere. There's a lot of randomness in the world. So yes, i believe there is a need to share.

i've benefitted from the Carnegies and the Mellons. I grew up going to Carnegie Library, Carnegie Museum, and have a graduate degree from CMU. I'm grateful for Andrew Carnegie in particular, but still, i can tell you that i've seen corporate greed in the US. Mergers and acquisitions, reorganizations and shareholder value are very frequently no one's Sistine Chapel. More like throwing hard work down the toilet. That's the obscenity.

And really, these CEOs who are telling their employees that their time will be cut or they'll be fired because Obama was elected? Before anything substantive happens? Looking for an excuse, for sure. I think greed is an excellent description.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:34
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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I presume you live here where health care is mandated? You enjoy the benefits of a civilized nation, yet critique those of us who would like the same standards
As we have here for the USA...
Yes, I live here in Switzerland where I have been legally forced to pay into a healthcare system from which I have as yet to receive any benefit.

So the measure of a "civilized" nation is mandated healthcare? As long as you have healthcare, the world is wonderful, right?

I don't critique those who want high standards for the US. I critique those who bandy about words like greed, lap up the wealth-envy rhetoric, and generally blackball successful people for being successful. I critique those who think that their opinions entitle them to reach into the pockets and take from another.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:34
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

Slammer's definition of "Greeeed" (with four "e's")
Somebody who screws over other people for personal gain.
The anti-obamacare bugger restaurant owner for example is just a cold hearted Wixer.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:39
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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Slammer's definition of "Greeeed" (with four "e's")
Somebody who screws over other people for personal gain..
So basically every person on the dole that gives nothing in return for the benefits they receive?
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:41
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

Ok here my two cents...A person/company that values their employees will make sure they are happy and health care is just one of the most basic needs.
If you are willing to employ people only for less than 30 hours a week so that your 'sucessful business' doesn't 'suffer', meaning so that you will not take any cuts from earnings, there is something wrong with you.
I am not saying to take 100% of healthcare costs from your pocket, that is why you can increase prices of the beloved products you offer, because if the business is so successful then a slight price increase won't hurt it.
It just boggles the mind to think that these people try to blame someone for their inability to want to share their success with the employees by means of paying a part of the insurance.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:42
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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You're not American, are you?

Tom
Are you
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:43
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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So the measure of a "civilized" nation is mandated healthcare? As long as you have healthcare, the world is wonderful, right?
Nope, that would be how happy and comfortable their people live.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:46
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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So basically every person on the dole that gives nothing in return for the benefits they receive?
If they are deliberately on the dole with no intention of working and think they can milk society and deserve more........Greedy imo.

You don`t have to be rich to be greedy, and you can be greedy and still not be a bad person. Say you want a lot more for yourself by growing your business for example and can bring success to the business, yourself, and other people.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:50
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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As to the rest of your post- need entitles us to nothing. It does not give a group of individuals the moral right to use the government to pick the pockets of a second group.
I think this is a very pathetic way to look at things.

IF Americans had been being paid what they actually need to live off of all along, this wouldn't even be an issue now. (See my previous post for what I think goes in to factoring a true living wage)

IF everyone had access - and I do not mean that employers should provide it, I mean that it should be accessible one way or another from insurance companies, whether through employer, whether through individual purchase or through government help for the needy (or some mixture of these things) - to health insurance "all along", this would not be an issue now.

The mere fact that these things have not been available all along points very strongly to greed. Belittling the actual needs of people by pushing their desire for more into a bracket of "envy" is extremely poor. For shame.
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Old 15.11.2012, 23:53
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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As to the rest of your post- need entitles us to nothing. It does not give a group of individuals the moral right to use the government to pick the pockets of a second group.
So I guess the banks should return everything the 'borrowed'...
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Old 16.11.2012, 00:05
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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So I guess the banks should return everything the 'borrowed'...
As well as GM, Chrysler, Solyndra (oops, they went bankrupt, we're not getting any of that back..). The list goes on.
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Old 16.11.2012, 00:08
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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As well as GM, Chrysler, Solyndra (oops, they went bankrupt, we're not getting any of that back..). The list goes on.
So you are actually agreeing with me
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Old 16.11.2012, 00:08
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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I think this is a very pathetic way to look at things.

IF Americans had been being paid what they actually need to live off of all along, this wouldn't even be an issue now. (See my previous post for what I think goes in to factoring a true living wage)

IF everyone had access - and I do not mean that employers should provide it, I mean that it should be accessible one way or another from insurance companies, whether through employer, whether through individual purchase or through government help for the needy (or some mixture of these things) - to health insurance "all along", this would not be an issue now.

The mere fact that these things have not been available all along points very strongly to greed. Belittling the actual needs of people by pushing their desire for more into a bracket of "envy" is extremely poor. For shame.
Again, you miss the point, with your wealth-envy bias. If we pay everyone a "living wage" then the cost of goods and services go up. Then we have to pay more to obtain a "living wage.". So the costs of goods and services go up. Then we have to pay more to obtain a "living wage.". Is that not clear? All you get is inflation. A bum with a million dollars in his pocket, but it can't buy him lunch...
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Old 16.11.2012, 00:13
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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Yes, I live here in Switzerland where I have been legally forced to pay into a healthcare system from which I have as yet to receive any benefit.
But thats the problem with insurance, you don`t know when you are going to need it. I am mostly for personal choice but if someone in the US drops to the floor from a heart attack (any urgent medical problem) and has no insurance who`s covering the cost? If they can never fund it from their wealth or lack thereof do we just let them to their own devices? If we help them then society picks up the cost and they may be quite well off but didn't think they should or choose not to take up insurance.

Like this woman

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mi...kill-obamacare

So I don`t think leaving people to die is acceptable and I don`t think picking up the tab for a failed entrepreneur (who may have only failed because she didn't have health insurance) or any one else who chooses not to insure is acceptable either. So yes, health care for all is a component of a civilized society in my opinion.

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Old 16.11.2012, 00:16
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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So basically every person on the dole that gives nothing in return for the benefits they receive?
No idea what planet you come from (well I do really) but people on the dole (me included at the moment) have paid into the system long enough in order to receive the benefits of the payment, that includes the right to go to a doctor and expect to be treated with the best available 21st century medicine without having to sell a kidney to pay for it.
There are people gouging the system for what it is worth, however I don't see how you draw your conclusion.
From discussions, not only on this honorable forum, I gather that the people who spout their anti healthcare polemic are those who are insured over the gunnels and don't need universal healthcare in the first place.
How do you explain it to little old Sally in her run down trailer, her retinas peeling like wallpaper from diabetics and has never, ever had the kind of money loose to pay for medicine?
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Old 16.11.2012, 00:21
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Re: Assinine Florida Restauranteur vs "Obamacare"

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Again, you miss the point, with your wealth-envy bias. If we pay everyone a "living wage" then the cost of goods and services go up. Then we have to pay more to obtain a "living wage.". So the costs of goods and services go up. Then we have to pay more to obtain a "living wage.". Is that not clear? All you get is inflation. A bum with a million dollars in his pocket, but it can't buy him lunch...
You would get inflation but not a never ending cycle of inflation to keep up with cost of living. Basically those well above the minimum wage would have their purchasing power diminished (by how much not sure, 4c a pizza, 10c a pizza??) but would unlikely recover that in wage increases.

You don`t see spiraling inflation in countries with better minimum wage conditions. There would be an adjustment for sure but not necessarily never ending (unless the Fed keeps printing money and the worlds economy sparks up a little).

A change is not going to be free and it certainly won't sit entirely on entrepreneurs as they will pass costs on. Their biggest fear is that customers then stop buying.
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