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  #21  
Old 16.11.2012, 11:08
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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These assumptions are not valid, simply because you do not know the number of exposed people (to an abortion) or whether the abortion was legal or not...

There were 7 deaths after legal abortions during 1982-84 and 4 during 1985-87


And it's easy enough to find that in 1982-84 there were ~400'000 legal abortions, and ~470'000 in 1985-87.

Try again!
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Old 16.11.2012, 11:33
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

I'm having a really tough time understanding the thought that makes removal of a dead / dying baby (with no chance of survival) from it's mother's body the same thing as abortion.
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Old 16.11.2012, 11:42
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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I'm having a really tough time understanding the thought that makes removal of a dead / dying baby (with no chance of survival) from it's mother's body the same thing as abortion.
It's actually a technical term, though probably less popular nowadays. It's more usual to say TOP (Termination of Pregnancy), but they are the same thing. However, the term "missed abortion" is often used when the fetus has actually died, but not been expelled by natural means. Journos use abortion because it is more emotive, and I probably should have amended my thread title accordingly, apologies for not doing so.
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  #24  
Old 16.11.2012, 11:53
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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There were 7 deaths after legal abortions during 1982-84 and 4 during 1985-87

And it's easy enough to find that in 1982-84 there were ~400'000 legal abortions, and ~470'000 in 1985-87.

Try again!
Sorry my bad for not reading source, It was been proven though (have not source sorry) that legalizing abortion decreases mortality rates as ther eis no need for illegal abortions.
But anyhoo, I do not get your point.
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  #25  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:11
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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I'm surprised they didn't clean their hands of the issue by saying she needed specialist care the UK and airlift to a hospital across the Irish Sea...
Referring someone for an abortion (which was clearly requested by the husband) is illegal in Irish law.
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Old 16.11.2012, 12:14
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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They treat JFK as a saint in the local Catholic church but won't allow an abortion. Oh, the irony of it all.
Who are they? Oh you mean pious catholic churchgoers? It's their freedom of religion.

However I don't think JFK pretended to be a medical professional, so I don't see the link.

I mean Mother Teresa was actually made a saint, if you want to discuss irony.
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Old 16.11.2012, 12:17
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Actually, I think it was racism. The woman was Asian. I'm willing to bet that had she been white, that comment would never have been made.
The hospital isn't governed by dogma, it's governed by the law.

Some medical procedures are illegal. The doctors don't make the laws, politicians do.

If you want to discuss politicians being governed by dogma, happy to discuss. Let's include Romney.....and Obama's original faith for a comparative.
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Old 16.11.2012, 12:22
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Actually, I think it was racism. The woman was Asian. I'm willing to bet that had she been white, that comment would never have been made.
Hmmm there are a lot of Asian catholics, like in the Philippines, and a lot of nurses in Ireland are Filipinas.....so let's keep an open mind on who may have made the comment and why.

So hypothetically if it was a Filipina Asian nurse, to an Asian Indian, is it still racist as they're both Asian?

Me, I think it was contextual to explain the original context of the law when made in 1982 and the power of the Church in Ireland politically at that time, but it's already more than a generation ago now. Ireland's changing slowly like Switzerland is.
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  #29  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:30
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Is it illegal to remove a dead fetus from a woman's womb? I'd like to read that law!
Back home (different scenario of course) it is illegal to perform an abortion unless:
Miscarriage is already ongoing and can't be stopped
The fetus is already dead
The well-being of the mother is in grave danger

There are laws and then there are exceptions/...
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  #30  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:35
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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I'm having a really tough time understanding the thought that makes removal of a dead / dying baby (with no chance of survival) from it's mother's body the same thing as abortion.
In law this difference is critical. It's the basis of the constant foetus hearbeat checks over the 3 days, although I'm curious about the other checks and tests referred to in the article.

Abortion has multiple definitions. Some think if you have an IUD or take the morning after pill that that constitutes abortion. It's not an exact term.

For example, you referred to the unborn foetus as a baby, a baby needs to be born first. (I know what you meant, I'm just trying to help your understanding).

Finally the coverage seems to suggest an unexpelled miscarriage had occured, I'm curious about those details too and the basis of what's being presented.

I have a feeling, that some of the media details we're being given will be changed as this story evolves.
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  #31  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:38
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In UK there are about 800,000 births and 200,000 abortions yearly. Quite a feat.
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  #32  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:38
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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According to this "There were 7 deaths after legal abortions during 1982-84 and 4 during 1985-87".

It could be argued that these 11 women would be alive if they hadn't had an abortion. So two statements:
  1. "UK abortion law led to 11 deaths in the 80s, therefore UK abortion law should have been changed"
  2. "Irish abortion law led to a death in 2013, therefore Irish abortion law should be changed".

If the 2 is valid, persumably 1 is. And if 1 isn't valid then neither is 2. I can't see how 1 could be false and 2 could be true (except if "abortion must be legal" is taken as an axiom) - but perhaps someone else can see it.

In this case, it is claimed that if she'd had an abortion, then she would not have died. Do we know this for sure? The media isn't well known for providing accurate information. Perhaps it was other medical mismanagement that was the real cause. Perhaps with proper care, both mother and baby would be expected to live. Maybe we'll get to know after the investigation - unless there's the usual hospital cover ups.
Here is a statistic that makes the case for legal abortion, from the source you cited:

number of maternal deaths due to abortion in 1961-63: 160

Abortion was legalized in 1967.
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  #33  
Old 16.11.2012, 12:45
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

In Poland, we also have a very restrictive anti-abortion law. Abortion is legal only in cases of rape, birth defects or danger to the woman’s life; however, there is pressure on doctors not to perform any procedures, regardless of the circumstances. There is enormous abortion underground (highly profitable for doctors since the procedures are untaxed), abortion tourism, infanticide and child abandonment.
There have been a few rulings against Poland by the European Court of Human Rights in cases in which women were denied their legal rights by hospitals or doctors. One of the cases is described in this article. A woman died because the doctor cited conscientious objection and refused to perform the procedure.
There was also a shocking case of a 14-year-old girl, who was raped. She was turned away by all hospitals, all doctors refused to perform the abortion, and she became the target of all the religious nuts, including a priest who harassed her with unwanted text messages. Fortunately, the girl’s family also won in the European Court of Human Rights. The details of the case are here.
This is definitely one thing I don’t miss when I think of my home country.
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Old 16.11.2012, 12:50
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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...For example, you referred to the unborn foetus as a baby, a baby needs to be born first...
Unborn foetus is a tautology.

A foetus is an baby that is not yet born. (As defined here)
A neonate is a baby that has been born.

Baby is a general term, referring both the child in the womb and until the child reaches toddlerhood.

Pro-choicers like to use foetus for the same reason that pro-lifers prefer to use it. To draw attention away from/toward certain uncomfortable facts.
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Old 16.11.2012, 13:13
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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There were 7 deaths after legal abortions during 1982-84 and 4 during 1985-87


And it's easy enough to find that in 1982-84 there were ~400'000 legal abortions, and ~470'000 in 1985-87.

Try again!
So based on this argument, the mortality rate for legal abortion is between 1 and 2 per 100,000 (about 1.1 for 1985-87 and about 1.8 for 1982-84).

During the same period, the maternal mortality rate for the UK was 7 per 100,000. In terms of saving the lives of mothers, the obvious thing to do is prevent all pregnancies...
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  #36  
Old 16.11.2012, 13:51
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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So hypothetically if it was a Filipina Asian nurse, to an Asian Indian, is it still racist as they're both Asian?
A good question.
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Old 16.11.2012, 13:57
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Is it illegal to remove a dead fetus from a woman's womb? I'd like to read that law!
Back home (different scenario of course) it is illegal to perform an abortion unless:
Miscarriage is already ongoing and can't be stopped
The fetus is already dead
The well-being of the mother is in grave danger

There are laws and then there are exceptions/...
The lady was admitted Sunday, but the foetal hearbeat stopped Wednesday.
So for three days one of your scenarios didn't apply.

Unfortunately Irish law doesn't provide clear guidelines on the other two, hence this disaster.

As for laws and exceptions, difficult topic. The law will always be behind medicine. Look at the controversies with IVF, stem cells etc.

I know it's understandable to apply laws from "back home" in forming an opinion, but they're not the laws of Ireland (yet). I can't imagine being a medical professional in that scenario.

Hopefully this case changes that. We've been discussing it since the "X" case of 1991/92.
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Old 16.11.2012, 14:04
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

I think Ireland is a catholic country. I was raised Catholic but im not catholic now.

Majority of schools & hospitals are catholic run/funded.... also with support form the government too! I think its wrong for our government to support catolic teachings but seeing as 90% of our schools are catholic maybe they havent a choice.

Out side many schools (more so in the "country") you are very likely to find a statue of Mary. Or when you walk in the door there will be a picture of Jesus, maybe a cross. Every year schools all over the country make the St. Brigids Cross, learn about St. Partick prepare for Holy Communion/ Confirmation. Both Sacrements btw are prepared for during school hours!

Hospitals arent much better, the nuns do the rounds more than the doctors. they visit the sick. Say prayers with you. The priest does the same. IN FACT most hospitals actually have a "hired" priest. So their wages are paid for by the healthboard (Technically the government).

In the bigger wards there is always someone who will will say the prayers in the evening and tough crap you have to listen to it.

The Pill was legalised only in 1986 (ish) and still people protested outside the doctors.

Ireland is changing but slowly. I hope that this is the kick up the arse needed to move faster.

I think at the very least it should be legal in cases of danger to the mother/rape etc...

BTW.. Ireland is a nice country ... . lol
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Old 16.11.2012, 14:14
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Here is a statistic that makes the case for legal abortion, from the source you cited:

number of maternal deaths due to abortion in 1961-63: 160

Abortion was legalized in 1967.
Ive been studying UK law this year with the OU.

Ît's true the UK Abortion Act for England and Wales and Scotland (but not Northern Ireland) was passed in 1967. It only came into effect as legalized in April 1968.

Before then the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 permitted limited abortions to save the life of the mother and some other limited cases.

This 1861 law still applies in Northern Ireland in conjuction with the CJA of 1945.

This 1861 UK law also technically applied to Ireland until the Constitutional Amendments of 1982. It is therefore the removal of the previously limited abortion (which would have been applicable in this case it seems) that is the nub of the issue.

The 1982 Irish Constitutional Amendment led to a mess, has been re-interpreted by the Supreme Court (which has the power to comment on constitutionality independently of Government and the Legislature) but has only been partially responded to in a series of partial amendment referenda since.

Unfortunately similar to Switzerland, the only way to reverse the Constitution is via referendum under Irish law. Hence the political reticence to propose such a bill restoring at least in part the pre-1982 status quo with more certainty via a Bill/legislation.
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Old 16.11.2012, 15:01
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Unborn foetus is a tautology.

A foetus is an baby that is not yet born. (As defined here)
A neonate is a baby that has been born.

Baby is a general term, referring both the child in the womb and until the child reaches toddlerhood.

Pro-choicers like to use foetus for the same reason that pro-lifers prefer to use it. To draw attention away from/toward certain uncomfortable facts.
Agreed, let's be more exact when making some of our medically and/or legally relevant points, as it is this conjunction that's the heart of this case.

Last edited by magyir; 16.11.2012 at 15:18.
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