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  #41  
Old 16.11.2012, 15:09
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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I think Ireland is a catholic country. I was raised Catholic but im not catholic now.

Majority of schools & hospitals are catholic run/funded.... also with support form the government too! I think its wrong for our government to support catolic teachings but seeing as 90% of our schools are catholic maybe they havent a choice.

Out side many schools (more so in the "country") you are very likely to find a statue of Mary. Or when you walk in the door there will be a picture of Jesus, maybe a cross. Every year schools all over the country make the St. Brigids Cross, learn about St. Partick prepare for Holy Communion/ Confirmation. Both Sacrements btw are prepared for during school hours!

Hospitals arent much better, the nuns do the rounds more than the doctors. they visit the sick. Say prayers with you. The priest does the same. IN FACT most hospitals actually have a "hired" priest. So their wages are paid for by the healthboard (Technically the government).

In the bigger wards there is always someone who will will say the prayers in the evening and tough crap you have to listen to it.

The Pill was legalised only in 1986 (ish) and still people protested outside the doctors.

Ireland is changing but slowly. I hope that this is the kick up the arse needed to move faster.

I think at the very least it should be legal in cases of danger to the mother/rape etc...

BTW.. Ireland is a nice country ... . lol
I no longer consider Ireland a Catholic country. However the facts are, that the first words of the Irish Constitution still start with the following:

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, ......, "


As it is part of the Constitution, it is part of the law (and its implementation/interpretation). Therefore the risk is could my "actions.." to this Trinity that "must be referred" to, be regarded as unauthorized? That's the dilemma of the "Catholic country" reference.

No amendment to remove this has yet succeeded. I think Ireland is only a "lapsed Catholic" country, despite the removal of the previous more explicit reference to Catholicism as the religion of the majority. However this "referral" provision isn't as yet lapsed/amended.
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Old 16.11.2012, 15:20
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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In terms of saving the lives of mothers, the obvious thing to do is prevent all pregnancies...
It's the only solution that makes sense.

In this case, for all we know, it was medically in the woman's best interests for her to be treated as she was, and was entirely in accord with all decent medical practice - and she died anyway.

Equally, for all we know, the baby wasn't going to survive, and if the mother had had an abortion at the point she requested, she'd have been alive and well(ish) today.

Maybe we'll find out after the investigation - though I have my doubts.
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  #43  
Old 16.11.2012, 15:26
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Let's make this absolutely clear about abortion, every vote counts:

You can pray to end abortion

Or you can accept the fact that the Catholic Church's views of life are about as realistic as employing a honey badger to be a baby sitter.
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  #44  
Old 16.11.2012, 17:13
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Republican congressman claims 'legitimate rape' does not cause pregnancy
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Old 16.11.2012, 19:54
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

I actually had the pleasure of voting against Todd Akin, and (though not due to me) he lost.

Hope still lives in the USA.
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Old 16.11.2012, 22:30
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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As it is part of the Constitution, it is part of the law (and its implementation/interpretation). Therefore the risk is could my "actions.." to this Trinity that "must be referred" to, be regarded as unauthorized? That's the dilemma of the "Catholic country" reference.

No amendment to remove this has yet succeeded. I think Ireland is only a "lapsed Catholic" country, despite the removal of the previous more explicit reference to Catholicism as the religion of the majority. However this "referral" provision isn't as yet lapsed/amended.
If you take the time to actually read the Irish constitution, you should realise that what you have quoted does not form part of the constitution, but is rather a preamble from 1939, thrown in by De Valera to get Bishop McQuaid and his friends on side at the time.

Since it does not form part of the constitution it is neither necessary nor possible to remove it by constitutional amendment or otherwise.

There are plenty of similar phrases used in other countries such as "Defender of the faith", "In God we trust", and "One nation under God" come to mind. The use of such phrases neither make a country more or less Christian than any others, they simply derived from another time....

The reality is the we live in a predominantly Christian part of the world and we can't expect the majority of society to change, just because we don't agree with them.
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  #47  
Old 16.11.2012, 22:57
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Majority of schools & hospitals are catholic run/funded....
Really... perhaps you could show us evidence of this, it could save the country a fortune

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I think its wrong for our government to support catolic teachings but seeing as 90% of our schools are catholic maybe they havent a choice.

Out side many schools (more so in the "country") you are very likely to find a statue of Mary. Or when you walk in the door there will be a picture of Jesus, maybe a cross. Every year schools all over the country make the St. Brigids Cross, learn about St. Partick prepare for Holy Communion/ Confirmation. Both Sacrements btw are prepared for during school hours!
It's completely unrealistic to expect people to stop practice their religion!

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IN FACT most hospitals actually have a "hired" priest. So their wages are paid for by the healthboard (Technically the government).
Do you have an actual reference???


In the bigger wards there is always someone who will will say the prayers in the evening and tough crap you have to listen to it.

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I think at the very least it should be legal in cases of danger to the mother/rape etc...
I agree with you, but do you expect a practicing Catholic doctor or nurse to carry it??? Over the years I've met several Irish doctors who were willing to argue for it's availability, but at the same time were adamant that they were not going to do the procedure.
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Old 16.11.2012, 23:08
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Which causes huge tensions in Gyneacological departments up and down the country and in the UK + elesewhere, I dare say. Imagine, a team of 5 consultants, and 3 refuse to perform abortions due to religious reasons- leaving the other 2 to share those cases - with resentment that they have to do way above their fair share. If a doctor does not want to deal with the duties of his/her job, he should choose another field.
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  #49  
Old 16.11.2012, 23:13
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

Catholic-owned hospital ethics committees denied approval of uterine evacuation while fetal heart tones were still present, forcing physicians to delay care or transport miscarrying patients to non–Catholic-owned facilities.

Some physicians intentionally violated protocol because they felt patient safety was compromised.

Source


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Mrs Halappanavar died after doctors refused to terminate her 17-week pregnancy, even though they knew her miscarriage was inevitable and there was no chance the foetus would survive.

They left Mrs Halappanavar to labour naturally, despite her pleas to be induced, as long as the foetal heartbeat continued.

Mrs Halappanavar delivered a dead foetus after three days of agonising pain but later died of septicaemia.
SMH

It is unclear when exactly the septicaemia started to occur. We will never know 100% for sure that an abortion would have been enough to save her life but we know that two lives were lost. All their refusal to perform the abortion didn't make any difference but may have cost her life as well.
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Old 17.11.2012, 02:17
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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If you take the time to actually read the Irish constitution, you should realise that what you have quoted does not form part of the constitution, but is rather a preamble from 1939, thrown in by De Valera to get Bishop McQuaid and his friends on side at the time.

Since it does not form part of the constitution it is neither necessary nor possible to remove it by constitutional amendment or otherwise.

There are plenty of similar phrases used in other countries such as "Defender of the faith", "In God we trust", and "One nation under God" come to mind. The use of such phrases neither make a country more or less Christian than any others, they simply derived from another time....
I see. So by the same logic the preamble to the U.S. Constitution isn't part of it either? Funny that "We the people ....." gets quoted a lot as if it was......

My preamble working assumption/understanding is that a Preamble generally sets out the principles of the subsequent Articles. Therefore it's part of what the Courts interpret to be the meaning of the law. Thus legally relevant.
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Old 17.11.2012, 04:22
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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It is unclear when exactly the septicaemia started to occur. We will never know 100% for sure that an abortion would have been enough to save her life but we know that two lives were lost. All their refusal to perform the abortion didn't make any difference but may have cost her life as well.
Perhaps her body worked differently than mine, but I went home (more clearly, was SENT home) from ultrasound when I knew there was trouble and began having fever and chills that evening, which was the day following the start of the miscarriage event.

Trouble Sunday, doctor visit Monday with heartbeat present but not right, doctor visit Tuesday and I was very sick, doctor couldn't find heart beat so she sent me to the hospital (in a taxi) because they have better equipment (her words) to try to find the heart beat.

I was so tired, felt so sick, I had the shakes, my husband says my lips were blue. The doctors gave me something to push down my fever as well as some warmed blankets to help me feel warm, and iv antibiotics. They moved me to another room after my teeth stopped chattering and I was induced to labor.


Maybe her body was stronger than mine, maybe she wasn't becoming septic for days, even though it took me less than 24hrs.

When I asked the doctors about my baby, what happened, they said that regardless of anything else that had happened (or perhaps "everything else"), my infection was so bad that the baby was infected as well, so even if she (always "she" in my heart and mind) had still had a heartbeat by then, she wouldn't have lived through the infection at 17 - 18 weeks.


So, by trying to avoid performing an abortion, they not only guaranteed the death of the baby anyhow since the mother's infection was so extensive, but they allowed the mother to die as well.

I can not help but think that if they are right about how an unborn child is, what they can feel, the baby in this case suffered incredibly, becoming more and more ill by the hour itself, just like it's mother.
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Old 17.11.2012, 05:27
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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This appeared in the papers yesterday.

Makes me sick. How can a 21st century hospital still be governed by medieval religious dogma?
Speaking as an Irish-American (non-practicing) Catholic, any of my people whining about how Britain should cede NI to Ireland need to STFU.
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Old 17.11.2012, 06:34
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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I agree with you, but do you expect a practicing Catholic doctor or nurse to carry it??? Over the years I've met several Irish doctors who were willing to argue for it's availability, but at the same time were adamant that they were not going to do the procedure.
If the Mother's life is in danger they will have to carry out the procedure - if they are apart of a qualified obstetric medical team in a hospital, it's their job. Once the legislation is changed with clear unambiguous guidelines to protect the Mother's life, they will have to do it, whether they like it or not.

Irish HSE consultants and doctors get paid far too much for doing too little - the mess that is the HSE is an on going debate in Ireland for the last few years.

The team at the UniversitätsSpital Zürich don't like carrying out abortion procedures either, but they do it, if they have to.



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I can not help but think that if they are right about how an unborn child is, what they can feel, the baby in this case suffered incredibly, becoming more and more ill by the hour itself, just like it's mother.
Sorry for your loss, Peg.

I was talking to someone this week who told me she was miscarrying for the best part of a week in an Irish hospital. They would not give her any medication to manage the pain - because of the heartbeat. They had to wait for her baby to die first.. and yes, I agree with you, the baby must be in agony if the Mother is.

I don't think it is clear how quickly she became septic, or what exactly happened towards the end, or how exactly it was mismanaged. An international doctor/expert is now apart of the investigation team, to bring some objectivity to the case, I guess. The investigation/inquiry will take up to 3 months.

Last edited by Swisstree; 17.11.2012 at 06:50. Reason: added text
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Old 17.11.2012, 09:27
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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Sorry for your loss, Peg.

I was talking to someone this week who told me she was miscarrying for the best part of a week in an Irish hospital. They would not give her any medication to manage the pain - because of the heartbeat. They had to wait for her baby to die first.. and yes, I agree with you, the baby must be in agony if the Mother is.

I don't think it is clear how quickly she became septic, or what exactly happened towards the end, or how exactly it was mismanaged. An international doctor/expert is now apart of the investigation team, to bring some objectivity to the case, I guess. The investigation/inquiry will take up to 3 months.
Thank you Swisstree. It happened a while back, if things had gone according to (my) plan, she would have been three earlier this month. That, combined with this story being pretty similar to mine (despite happening HERE, where no one told me that I'd be going through that out of religious reasons), really makes this story hit home.

I'm really sorry for the woman in the story, it is too easy to imagine exactly how she was feeling. Also, for her husband, mine was so scared when it became obvious to him how sick I was.
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Old 17.11.2012, 09:38
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

This whole story is weird. This was not an abortion in the typical sense so even a practising Catholic would carry out the operation.
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Old 17.11.2012, 11:14
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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If the Mother's life is in danger they will have to carry out the procedure - if they are apart of a qualified obstetric medical team in a hospital, it's their job. Once the legislation is changed with clear unambiguous guidelines to protect the Mother's life, they will have to do it, whether they like it or not.
To expect people to do something which is so fundamentally against their religion is just not on! As far as they are concerned they are being told to commit murder and I don't see them going along with that. Not alone that but they will have the constitution on their side as well, as they have an equal right to practice their religion...
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Old 17.11.2012, 11:22
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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I see. So by the same logic the preamble to the U.S. Constitution isn't part of it either? Funny that "We the people ....." gets quoted a lot as if it was......
No idea, I've never taken a class on US constitutional law... but I have sat through a year of Irish constitutional law at one time.

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My preamble working assumption/understanding is that a Preamble generally sets out the principles of the subsequent Articles. Therefore it's part of what the Courts interpret to be the meaning of the law. Thus legally relevant.
As far as Irish law is concerned, we begin at article 1!
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Old 17.11.2012, 11:48
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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To expect people to do something which is so fundamentally against their religion is just not on! As far as they are concerned they are being told to commit murder and I don't see them going along with that. Not alone that but they will have the constitution on their side as well, as they have an equal right to practice their religion...
So, they allow a woman to die because it against their religion to intervene when they have a moral and professional obligation to save her life? What nonsense! Then Savita and her husband would have needed to know that the particular hospital they ended up in has an obstetric medical team opposed to using any intervention methods to abort a foetus whether it was viable or not in order to save her life.

If what you have written is fact, then we would have seen a lot more cases like this in the past. We have not. Why? Because Doctors in Ireland medically intervene when the health of the Mother is at risk or if there is any sign of complications due to infection. They end the pregnancy.

In Galway this did not happened and we will not know exactly why until the inquiry team have done their investigation. If it turns out religion was used as an excuse then I think heads will roll.. the law needs to be very clear/ explicit legislation so this never happens again.

If Doctors in the field of Obstetrics/Gynaecology do not want to do their job because of their religious beliefs, the HSE will need to fire them.
Let them retrain in the field of Podiatry
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Old 18.11.2012, 10:08
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

What happened is a terrible tragedy but irish maternity hospitals have a very good record of patient care.
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Old 19.11.2012, 08:40
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Re: Woman dies in Irish hospital after being denied an abortion

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To expect people to do something which is so fundamentally against their religion is just not on! As far as they are concerned they are being told to commit murder and I don't see them going along with that. Not alone that but they will have the constitution on their side as well, as they have an equal right to practice their religion...
BUT should religion come into it?? Should medicine and religion not be seperate. Is it not reasonable to expect the very best hospital care for you... life saving care... regardless of someones faith.

I know in this story it wasnt down to some ones faith but the law of the land. . So slightly off topic..

And as for the priest on the payroll... this is true. In fact the man who married my husband and I was a HSE priest.

But i am very glad to see the people are getting out there and making their voices heard http://www.independent.ie/national-n...y-3297191.html
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