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  #21  
Old 21.11.2012, 14:38
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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And the whole world just sits around watching without doing anything about the carnage?

I`m ignorant about international conventions and such, but surely a people cannot be butchered without some sort of United Nations intervention?
Was nothing learned from the last wars?
Where is America when they could be doing something useful at last?
Where there really is a need for some armed intervention to protect citizens?


Yep, we should jump to help every time so that every time we can get criticized yet again for sticking our noses where people later decide it never belonged?

Yes, it is unimaginably terrible. Yes, something should be done. There is a WHOLE lotta EU a lot closer than the US who can and should "do something useful" about it - after all, the EU member states are the ones next most at direct risk.

How many family members do you have in the US armed forces that you want to throw their blood on a Middle East / European problem?
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  #22  
Old 21.11.2012, 14:41
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

Typical one-sided, deliberately misinforming nonsense.
I really think everyone should try to research these questions before making up ones mind:

- What is the average income/life expectancy/child mortality/death from non-natural causes/illiteracy rate of Palestinians compared to all surrounding Muslim countries?

- How many of the targets hit are not clearly linked to Hamas facilities and/or rocket launch sites? How many of the civilian casualties are not directly linked to military activities in civilian facilities/private houses?

- How many percent of Palestinians support rocket launches at Isreali cities?

Could be a bit of an eye-opener for some of you.
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Old 21.11.2012, 14:59
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Perhaps Avigdor Leiberman will help. I sincerely hope there is a special pit in hell reserved for that despicable character.

Maybe if fewer people believed in Heaven & Hell there would be less conflict in the world.
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Old 21.11.2012, 14:59
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

The real winner in this conflict are most likely gonna be the Gazans. But they will win nasty, very, very nasty, and very slow, with a lot of pictures and YouTubes full of weeping mothers and blood and horror. It goes with the saying: “Victory will go to those who can endure the most, not those who can inflict the most.” Gaza has one of the higher birthrates in the world for one, the woman are punching out babies at a higher rate than anybody else, that means you have by now almost two million pissed off future martyrs for the cause crammed in a area of 360 square miles, the island of Man had 570 square miles, do the math, second the tally at the moment is somewhere like 40 dead pals for one Israeli stiff and the pals are totally ok with that kind of ratio, it fits with this whole martyr thing they have going on.
For a starwars kind of army like the IDF Gaza is a turkey shoot, you can't miss civilians even if you tried and by now the only way to win is to totally depopulate the area, something that since the carnage of 2006 even the more fundamental Jews are squeamish about.
So it really boils down to the saying. "Nuke them, bribe them or leave them alone."
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Old 21.11.2012, 15:02
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Yep, we should jump to help every time so that every time we can get criticized yet again for sticking our noses where people later decide it never belonged?

Yes, it is unimaginably terrible. Yes, something should be done. There is a WHOLE lotta EU a lot closer than the US who can and should "do something useful" about it - after all, the EU member states are the ones next most at direct risk.

How many family members do you have in the US armed forces that you want to throw their blood on a Middle East / European problem?
Well, I mention America because they do seem jump into everyone else`s problems without an invite.

They went into Asian countries (remember Vietnam?), then Iraq, they`re getting into Iran, why not Israel as well? Keeping up their image, you know?

No American family members in armed forces there (well one, but he`s not in America, he`s sent somewhere else to look into possible trouble forthcoming), only South African ones, who threw their blood into mopping up problems caused by America`s reneged promises on a land treaty (reminiscent of your own Indian Treaties?) and subversive weapons supplies (I guess you`re probably too young to remember Namibia when it was called German South West Africa "under American protection" - why? ...Oh because THAT was where all the diamonds were - always a good connection where there`s a profit to be made).

No profit = no interest. Well, that`s the general image I have of good old USA. That plus junk foods/fat people/Ford/Mickey Mouse/Goofy/Presidents. You can omit the slash between the last 3.
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Old 21.11.2012, 15:17
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

Can't totally agree with you there on that point, remember the Balkan kerfuffle?
Something that our Moslem brethren seem to like to forget when indulging in big satan- little satan bashing is that the US put their foot down, effectively stopping the Serbs massacring the Moslem population.
We, the Europeans failed miserably in that conflict and it was only when the US told NATO rather bluntly to get their Scheiße together that the killing petered out.
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Old 21.11.2012, 15:19
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I am really sorry to share such a horrific video, but I think it is important that everyone on this planet realises what is going on in the largest open air prison in the world in Palestine. It is not a war where you can say ‘both sides’ are wrong or ‘both sides’ are equally to blame. It is a butchering, a racial cleansing of people by another group of people that see them as objects and not live human beings .

Video (19:00), not for the faint-hearted:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=506195522739165

If only the people in the open air prison didn't have a load of rockets that they keep targeting women and children with. Does Ford Open Prison have rockets and funding from Iran? Cause that's an open air prison. Or are different open air prisons different?
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  #28  
Old 21.11.2012, 15:31
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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If only the people in the open air prison didn't have a load of rockets that they keep targeting women and children with. Does Ford Open Prison have rockets and funding from Iran? Cause that's an open air prison. Or are different open air prisons different?
I think she means open air prisons where people are more free, healthy and wealthy than in most surrounding countries.
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  #29  
Old 21.11.2012, 15:56
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Typical one-sided, deliberately misinforming nonsense.
...
I agree on that.


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- What is the average income/life expectancy/child mortality/death from non-natural causes/illiteracy rate of Palestinians compared to all surrounding Muslim countries?
...
I don't really understand what you imply by that. Besides the fact that on HDI rank Palestinian Territories (i.e. Gaza and West Bank) are on position 114, Egypt 113, Syria 119 (Jordan and Lebanon are better off, and of course Israel on position 17),

it's not that one could blame Hamas that Gaza isn't like Denmark yet. Under Israeli rule for more than 30 years not much was done (and Israel had all means in its hands for doing so), although it has been much easier then than it is now.

If you mean that there is a link between low living standards and lack of institutionalization, d'accord,

if however the message was that a high developed country has every right and should have any means for oppression ... well


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- How many of the targets hit are not clearly linked to Hamas facilities and/or rocket launch sites? How many of the civilian casualties are not directly linked to military activities in civilian facilities/private houses?
...
I think i'ts a little bit more complicated this time.
Besides that any "collateral damage" i.e. civilian casualties resulting from wrong targeting or wrong weapon in only one hit causes more dead persons than all "missile" launches from Gaza to Israel together,

the distinction "terrorism" - "legitimized military measures" is fluid and slight. Explain to somebody (who cannot by any means simply leave the country and go living on Zürich's Goldküste) who got hit by Israeli weapons because IDF thought there being a Hamas member living upstairs, that we are talking legal war, meanwhile self-made rockets and - yes - terrorism, like also Irgun and others practiced with success before IDF was institutionalized, would be an obnoxious crime, n.b. not being there any military or other means to combat IDF, Israel or simply "the oppressor" (creating those means could be part of the solution, however. But the key is in Israel's hands, not in the Palestinians').


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- How many percent of Palestinians support rocket launches at Isreali cities?
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Right question, wrong moment.

For now you have also some Israeli trash gathering at Gaza border to admire the spectacle, for the rejoicing of revenge. Not any better.


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So it really boils down to the saying. "Nuke them, bribe them or leave them alone."
Problem is if those "them" practically live in your garden.
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Old 21.11.2012, 16:02
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I think she means open air prisons where people are more free, healthy and wealthy than in most surrounding countries.
Actually that applies to Ford Open Prison too...
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  #31  
Old 21.11.2012, 16:18
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I don't really understand what you imply by that. Besides the fact that on HDI rank Palestinian Territories (i.e. Gaza and West Bank) are on position 114, Egypt 113, Syria 119 (Jordan and Lebanon are better off, and of course Israel on position 17),

If you mean that there is a link between low living standards and lack of institutionalization, d'accord,
I didn't mean to imply anything so far, only to bring a few facts into the equation. I think even a cursory glance at the HDI, crime, health and other statistics show that Palestina is essentially as well or as badly off as all its neighbours, really not much of a difference. Slightly better schooled and educated, better or same income depending on source and whether international aid is counted in, same life expectency and so on. But much faster population growth than even rapidly growing Egypt, one of the fastest in the world.
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/pse.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...an_territories

To talk about genocide is laughable, even the estimated 1'000 deaths in the last Gaza war in 2008 was but the tiniest dent in that years population growth (1% to be precise). It's all very well for Arab leaders to point fingers at Isreal and their misstreatment of Palestinians, but they aren't treating their own citizens the slightest bit better. More people died because of war and internal unrest in most of the surrounding countries than in Gaza. But it wasn't Jews you might say. True, evil evil Jews.

Mind, I am not disagreeing with you Bucentaure, simply pointing out why I think some words like genocide should be used slightly more sparingly, otherwise the entire globe would be full of them.
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Old 21.11.2012, 16:36
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I didn't mean to imply anything so far, only to bring a few facts into the equation. I think even a cursory glance at the HDI, crime, health and other statistics show that Palestina is essentially as well or as badly off as all its neighbours, really not much of a difference. Slightly better schooled and educated, better or same income depending on source and whether international aid is counted in, same life expectency and so on. But much faster population growth than even rapidly growing Egypt, one of the fastest in the world.
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/pse.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...an_territories

To talk about genocide is laughable, even the estimated 1'000 deaths in the last Gaza war in 2008 was but the tiniest dent in that years population growth (1% to be precise). It's all very well for Arab leaders to point fingers at Isreal and their misstreatment of Palestinians, but they aren't treating their own citizens the slightest bit better. More people died because of war and internal unrest in most of the surrounding countries than in Gaza. But it wasn't Jews you might say. True, evil evil Jews.

Mind, I am not disagreeing with you Bucentaure, simply pointing out why I think some words like genocide should be used slightly more sparingly, otherwise the entire globe would be full of them.
Simon ! i normally i like your input, but on this one you making a ass of yourself A mass murder gets life in prison in switzerland,is more likley better of in prison then lots of people in the street .so lets put all those poor people in the steet in prisonI for one radder live in a tent then beeing locked up.most dogs in swizerland have more freedom
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  #33  
Old 21.11.2012, 16:40
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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To talk about genocide is laughable, even the estimated 1'000 deaths in the last Gaza war in 2008 was but the tiniest dent in that years population growth (1% to be precise). It's all very well for Arab leaders to point fingers at Isreal and their misstreatment of Palestinians, but they aren't treating their own citizens the slightest bit better.
...
Again, I completely agree on that.

However - the Arab spring and the use of social networks e.g. show it quite well - interestingly not all Arabs fall for that top-down propaganda coming from the Arab dictators' gov palaces, but Israels does, by constantly not being able to distinguish the Arabs and the Palestinians.


Anyhow, I fear a dead or injured person doesn't care so much if he was attacked for war, terrorism or genocide,

the only thing he or his relatives are interested in is reinstatement of justice and law. I think in Gaza for now chances are low, on the other hand I don't think that "eliminating" people by drones is so much more legal either.




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But it wasn't Jews you might say. True, evil evil Jews.
...
I don't say that. Hamas does, and there are good strategic reasons for doing so (i.e. bringing the Palestinians - btw. in Hamas' eyes themselves - on the same level of shoa victims on the one hand, depicting Israel as Nazi Germany, and themselves as something like the Maccabee leaders on the other), and there are infact some interesting parallelisms, even if slight.

However rhetoric and propaganda is one of the main weapons, especially in an asymmetric conflict, and in Arabic tradition even more,

so I personally wouldn't put my finger on each single word.
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  #34  
Old 21.11.2012, 16:45
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

This conflict is terrible. The pictures going around are heartbreaking, but nothing makes me feel more sick than the reports of celebrations over ones enemy's losses. Its one thing to fight out of necessity, but to celebrate death is something i will never be able to comprehend. Its not a game and its not a party.
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Old 21.11.2012, 16:55
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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To talk about genocide is laughable, even the estimated 1'000 deaths in the last Gaza war in 2008 was but the tiniest dent in that years population growth (1% to be precise). It's all very well for Arab leaders to point fingers at Isreal and their misstreatment of Palestinians, but they aren't treating their own citizens the slightest bit better. More people died because of war and internal unrest in most of the surrounding countries than in Gaza. But it wasn't Jews you might say. True, evil evil Jews.
What do you consider as Genocide?
Genocide, in my opinion, has many forms. one is killing them outright. Another is to impose a blockade for so long and so tight that the quality of life is unbearable. Israel may not have done the former, but it has certainly done the latter, repeatedly.

And concerning the arab leaders, yes they are awful characters themselves. But (certainly in my case) the judgement that i made was based on what i know and learn about Palestine itself, not what a leader of another country says. Bringing their human rights record into it, as your counterargument is...well, laughable. Its not related at all. We dont think its genocide because an ayatollah said so, we think its genocide because of what we have learned ourselves. We are intelligent enough to do so.
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Old 21.11.2012, 16:58
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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This conflict is terrible. The pictures going around are heartbreaking, but nothing makes me feel more sick than the reports of celebrations over ones enemy's losses. Its one thing to fight out of necessity, but to celebrate death is something i will never be able to comprehend.
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Old 21.11.2012, 17:00
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

I think it would actually be a step forward if it was admitted by the world that both sides in the conflict are pretty much scum bags and that they are both utterly wrong.

What annoys me is that the press and the US, UK etc. still push the "poor Israel look at them defending themselves" narrative; which is false. They are just as much to blame as the Palestinians and neither side can claim to be anywhere near the moral high ground.

Desmond Tutu wrote a good argument 10 years ago which unfortunately is still relevant today, he talks about the apartheid in Israel and how the will to fix the problem is clearly not present.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/29/comment
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The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.
Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.
We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land? ...... But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic, as if the Palestinians were not semitic
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Old 21.11.2012, 17:22
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I think it would actually be a step forward if it was admitted by the world that both sides in the conflict are pretty much scum bags and that they are both utterly wrong.

What annoys me is that the press and the US, UK etc. still push the "poor Israel look at them defending themselves" narrative; which is false. They are just as much to blame as the Palestinians and neither side can claim to be anywhere near the moral high ground.

Desmond Tutu wrote a good argument 10 years ago which unfortunately is still relevant today, he talks about the apartheid in Israel and how the will to fix the problem is clearly not present.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/29/comment
Well, it isn't always false. And for the record much of the press is pro Palestinian.

Apartheid in Israel? Less than in any Arab country. Why focus on Israel when it's surrounded by the world's most vicious dictatorships? Sounds pretty racist to me.
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Old 21.11.2012, 17:36
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Well, it isn't always false. And for the record much of the press is pro Palestinian.

Apartheid in Israel? Less than in any Arab country. Why focus on Israel when it's surrounded by the world's most vicious dictatorships? Sounds pretty racist to me.
Are you calling Desmond Tutu a racist?
I salute you and your obviously very large balls.
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Old 21.11.2012, 17:47
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

1. Israel according to international law, is an occupying state.
2. Resistance to occupation is granted as human under international law.
so please stop complaining about the rockets. There are going to be no flowers coming until israel accepts international law .


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If only the people in the open air prison didn't have a load of rockets that they keep targeting women and children with.
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