Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 22.11.2012, 11:50
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 206
Groaned at 11 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 255 Times in 109 Posts
ukal123 has an excellent reputationukal123 has an excellent reputationukal123 has an excellent reputationukal123 has an excellent reputation
Re: Crisis in Gaza

small summery:

After this long and sometimes feisty debate what conclusions have we established ?

The people in Gaza are suffering tremendously ! Agreed !

The people in Israel are suffering tremendously ! Agreed !

There are radical Muslims who believe they HAVE to kill Jews never mind if occupation or not ! Agreed !

The Israelis have hurt and killed many innocent civilians whilst targeting terrorist targets in Gaza ! Agreed !

Hamas have hurt and killed many innocent Israelis whilst targeting them! Agreed !


Now my question after ALL of these debates, What can we do to help !

What do you expect from Israel ? To open the borders ? How can they as long as there Militants, terrorist or over religious Muslims who will try everything they can to kill Jews and wipe them of the face of the earth !

There's millions of Muslims around the world who suffer tremendously just for these radical guys, but how else can Israel protect it self ?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ukal123 for this useful post:
  #82  
Old 22.11.2012, 11:54
PennyMama's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zurich
Posts: 309
Groaned at 13 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 286 Times in 164 Posts
PennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of many
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...=FBCNETTXT9038

'Israelis talk about fear, we Palestinians talk about death'



The current war in Gaza will lead to little other than more dead civilians and a fresh impetus to fight, say its residents

Mohammed al-Khoudry was staring at the rubble of a house where two young children and their father died on Tuesday.
"I've really tried to understand the Israelis. I used to work on a farm in Israel. I speak Hebrew. I watch their news. All the time they talk about fear. How they have to run to their bunkers to hide from the rockets. How their children can't sleep because of the sirens. This is not a good way for them to live," said Khoudry, who now scrapes a living growing his own produce.
"We Palestinians don't talk about fear, we talk about death. Our rockets scare them; their rockets kill us. We have no bomb shelters, we have no sirens, we have nowhere we can take our children and keep them safe. They are scared. We are dying."
The dying continued on Tuesday even as a ceasefire was being negotiated. The victims included Suhaib and Mohammed Hejazi, aged three and four, and their father Fuad, killed when an Israeli missile hit their house in Beit Lahiya as they were sleeping. The boys' mother, Amna, was badly wounded.
As the day wore on, and word came from Cairo that a halt to the violence may be just hours away, the bombardment intensified with Israeli missile strikes on cars in Gaza City and buildings to the north. Scores of casualties were packed into ambulances.
The Palestinian death toll rose above 120, a large number of them civilians, including at least 27 children. In Israel, three people, all civilians, have been killed by the hundreds of rockets fired from the Gaza enclave.
Khoudry joined the funeral procession for the Hejazi brothers through the streets of Beit Lahiya. The boys were swaddled in white cloth and Hamas flags. They might have been mistaken for sleeping if it weren't for the bruising and cuts to their faces.
A few hours after the funeral, the shelling gave way to a different bombardment: thousands of leaflets floating down on Beit Lahiya warning of worse to come. They told tens of thousands of people to get out of parts of northern and eastern Gaza nearest to the Israeli border. Some families did not hesitate, although they were not sure what the leaflets meant. Was it to warn of even more bombing? Or were the tanks on their way? What did it mean for a ceasefire?
Israel has sent its armour tanks into northern Gaza often enough that Palestinians around Beit Lahiya – where the open ground has been a favourite launching site for rockets into Israel – know what to expect.
Within hours, hundreds of people were following the explicit Israeli instructions to take specific roads to Gaza City and shelter there. Others headed to United Nations-run schools in the hope they would be protected from attack. But some stayed put, saying they had nowhere to go or that they would take their chances.
The deaths of the Hejazi brothers was regarded by many in Beit Lahiya not only as a tragedy but a crime.
If Israelis live in fear of the randomness of Hamas rockets, Gazans have a perhaps over-confident sense of Israel being in absolute control of where its missiles land.
On Sunday, Fateh Nasser, a resident of a block of flats in neighbouring Jabaliya that was home to five families, received a phone call in which an anonymous voice told him that everyone had five minutes to get out of the building. Minutes later it was destroyed by an Israeli missile. That sense of Israeli all-pervasiveness draws many Palestinians towards what they say is an inevitable conclusion.
"If they know who to call, then they know who they are killing," said Mohammed Yunis at his vegetable stall. "They know every inch of Gaza. They have maps from the occupation. They have cameras in the drones. How can it be an accident that our children are killed?"
Other leaflets dropped by the Israelis on Tuesday warned Palestinians to stay away from Hamas.
That's not easy even if the Hamas leadership and functionaries, such as policemen, have gone underground over the past week, or are at least sticking to the shadows. Hamas has abandoned police stations, government offices and the border post from northern Gaza into Israel. Instead, passport control is at a small desk far from the frontier.
But if the Israeli intent is to try and break Hamas's authority in the enclave, there's little sign that is working. No one else, least of all its rival, Fatah, which controls those parts of the West Bank run by the Palestinian Authority, is stepping into the breach.
And if anyone was in any doubt that Hamas continues to exert a form of authority, even from the shadows, the bodies of six men alleged to be collaborators with Israel were dumped on a Gaza City street on Tuesday afternoon. Some of their bodies were dragged through the streets, tied to the backs of motorcycles driven by armed men.
Few Palestinians are prepared to publicly question whether the one-sided battle of the past week has been worth it, mostly out of solidarity with the right of resistance against Israel. The hoped-for truce is presented as a victory on the streets.
"The Jews brought all their tanks to the edge of Gaza and then they thought about what would happen if they came here," said Ayman Salameh, after attending the Hejazi boys' funeral. "Many Palestinians would die, yes. But so would many Israelis. For what? Do they think the resistance will go away? They will have to kill every Palestinian. They know this. It is the lesson the Americans learned in Iraq and Afghanistan. When resistance is everywhere, the size of your guns doesn't matter."
But ask about why the fighting happened in the first place and a less belligerent answer is sometimes offered.
Khoudry said the bloodletting was provoked by the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, because he has an election coming up.
"Killing Palestinians makes him look strong. It is good politics in Israel," he said, adding cryptically: "He is lucky he has Hamas."
What does he mean?Khoudry hesitates. "Hamas will always fight," he said.

Please, could any pro-Israelis on EF please defend their actions? Go on, i dare you.
I could tackle this point by point, but i don't have the patience right now, but since you asked so nicely i will respond.

The article points out the uneven playing field. Yes, over a hundred killed in gaza while israel suffered a measly loss in comparison.

That is entierly true, however, the article doesnt take into account Israel's interception system, and neither did Hamas. Hundreds of rockets fired into Israel over the past few days, and the low number of lost lives is due to their warning sirens, their anti missles, and the fortified rooms that are built into homes. Had the iron dome not been used, israel's death toll could easily be in the high hundreds right now. Israel takes responsiblity to warn BOTH israelis and gazans that they are in danger. To say israelis dont need to fear death is absurd. Go visit israel and you can easily see it for yourself. You dont station guards and bag scanners outside of every public building if there werent a very real threat of death.
And on to the next point. They dont have fortified rooms in gaza. The civilians dont have where to hide. I question why is it that hamas who are the leading power in gaza, are not taking measures to protect their people? There are in fact underground bunkers in gaza. They are used to protect missiles. Not people. Perhaps instead of smuggling in missles, rockets, and warfare, hamas should use those same resources to ensure the safety of their people. Yet, still the responsiblity to protect falls completely on israels shoulders. When israel fails, israel takes the blame. We have proof of israel dropping leaflets, knocking on targeted roofs, warnings via sms and tv, and now also phone calls. When there wasnt sufficient warning, then israel is blamed for killing innocents. In fact, israel was blamed for some deaths they werent responsible for. There are fingers pointing at hamas for some of these deaths. You can read this:
http://www.humanevents.com/2012/11/1...as-not-israel/
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank PennyMama for this useful post:
  #83  
Old 22.11.2012, 11:55
Swiss Cheddar's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Zug
Posts: 2,139
Groaned at 40 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 3,047 Times in 1,239 Posts
Swiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond reputeSwiss Cheddar has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
Wrong!!!

It was posted from this info site and not your amateur blog:

http://www.ctpost.com/news/world/art...#photo-3775027


This is an AP image, people can't play around with those pics. Sorry, but you're an idiottt!!
Yes the picture of the kid with a gun is from the ctpost website, but i am not talking about that picture. I am talking about the other one. Read my previous post, its very clear.

The fact that it is an amateur blog is irrelevant. The picture of the kids with the Israel flags was taken BEFORE the cease fire.

You defy logic.


Quote:
View Post
And the most amazing is that you defend palestinian parents who put weapons in their children hands, but wait, the most important is that you found some amateur/plagiarist blog to support your claims!! So funny!!
When did i 'defend palestinian parents' ??

I have not posted any of my views about the current situation in Gaza, all i have done is call you out for posting bullshit.

cheers
SC
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Swiss Cheddar for this useful post:
  #84  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:11
SemAms's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: im Ausland
Posts: 305
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 415 Times in 228 Posts
SemAms has an excellent reputationSemAms has an excellent reputationSemAms has an excellent reputationSemAms has an excellent reputation
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
small summery:

After this long and sometimes feisty debate what conclusions have we established ?

The people in Gaza are suffering tremendously ! Agreed !

The people in Israel are suffering tremendously ! Agreed !

There are radical Muslims who believe they HAVE to kill Jews never mind if occupation or not ! Agreed !

The Israelis have hurt and killed many innocent civilians whilst targeting terrorist targets in Gaza ! Agreed !

Hamas have hurt and killed many innocent Israelis whilst targeting them! Agreed !


Now my question after ALL of these debates, What can we do to help !

What do you expect from Israel ? To open the borders ? How can they as long as there Militants, terrorist or over religious Muslims who will try everything they can to kill Jews and wipe them of the face of the earth !

There's millions of Muslims around the world who suffer tremendously just for these radical guys, but how else can Israel protect it self ?
I think if everybody had agreed on those points as you did (I also heartily agree on those), then it would be a major step towards resolution of the issue.

In light of various attacks on each side's soil, it does not help just to put the blame on the other.
US is right acknowledging Israel's right to self-defence but she should also have been critical about Israel's drone/missile attacks earlier too. Only then would she have been a fair critic

Same goes for the Hamas supporters including Turkey
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:18
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: schaffhausen
Posts: 50
Groaned at 115 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 84 Times in 52 Posts
ilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthy
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Ah ah ah ah
You're making things worse for yourself. RIDICULOUS. And btw who cares about the pic of the israeli children with their dangerous flag. The second one with the armed palestinian toddler is the important one.


Quote:
View Post
Yes the picture of the kid with a gun is from the ctpost website, but i am not talking about that picture. I am talking about the other one. Read my previous post, its very clear.

The fact that it is an amateur blog is irrelevant. The picture of the kids with the Israel flags was taken BEFORE the cease fire.

You defy logic.




When did i 'defend palestinian parents' ??

I have not posted any of my views about the current situation in Gaza, all i have done is call you out for posting bullshit.

cheers
SC
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at ilovemiami for this post:
  #86  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:28
MidfieldGeneral's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,503
Groaned at 92 Times in 85 Posts
Thanked 3,086 Times in 1,248 Posts
MidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond reputeMidfieldGeneral has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
What does that have to do with the fact that it took them 30 seconds to break the cease-fire?

When will you wake up and see that the palestinians are a bunch of psycho human bombs who enjoy blowing themselves up in the name of allah.
all palestinains are psycho human bombs? are you sure?
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:29
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,622
Groaned at 579 Times in 487 Posts
Thanked 20,893 Times in 10,976 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
I don't think they are Kassams that are reaching Jerusalem & Tel Aviv?

Somebody should be sending this video to Iran?
As mentioned, from the Guardian
"The commander of Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards has publicly admitted that his forces supplied the Islamic militant group Hamas with the knowhow to develop Fajr-5 missiles capable of reaching Tel Aviv.
"We haven't sent any weapons to Gaza because it is under blockade," Mohammad Ali Jafari was quoted as saying by Iran's Young Journalists Club news agency on Wednesday. "But we are honoured to announce that we gave them the technology of how to make Fajr-5 missiles and now they have their hands on plenty of them."

Wonder why Iran does not give aid to Gaza to help the people to improve their daily lives in the "open prison" rather than just building weapons. Could the reason be to keep the people poor & miserable (relatively speaking) so they can be used as dumb tools to attack Israel? Surely not!

Thinking about it; every cloud has a silver lining. It gave Israel a chance to exercise their Iron Dome anti missile system against real Iranian rockets; they probably learnt a lot. So maybe not a good strategic move by Iran

Last edited by marton; 22.11.2012 at 13:56. Reason: iron dome
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 22.11.2012, 12:41
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 206
Groaned at 11 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 255 Times in 109 Posts
ukal123 has an excellent reputationukal123 has an excellent reputationukal123 has an excellent reputationukal123 has an excellent reputation
Re: Crisis in Gaza

The argument about the picture is a pathetic one the same way as someone posted a video on the site that was a few years old, people make mistakes but I do believe there is a difference between the Palestinian and Israeli mentality on how to deal with this conflict, Is it because the Palestinians options are far more limited then Israelis, could be, I dont know !
Attached Thumbnails
crisis-gaza-665499_281422528645152_709082631_o.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 22.11.2012, 13:50
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,911
Groaned at 182 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 6,191 Times in 3,404 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
And there it is again, the error so many Sephardic immigrants do all the time (I see that a personally experienced atrocity can cloud judgement, but I always keep on asking myself about how can a person be so simple-minded). Palestinians aren't from the Maghreb (yea maybe there is some family even from al-Andalus, but sorry, when was that?), not all Arabs are Palestinians and Arabs from outside Palestine aren't the Palestinians' friends. This is not so difficult to understand. They are neither responsible for Shoa nor for riots and expulsions against anybody in Northern Africa, for the simple fact that they haven't lived in Europe or Northern Africa, but in Palestine/Israel. Most of your family did not (the Palestinians had no choice, but your family at least had an option to be safe somewhere, if they were Jews from the Maghreb - of course the surviving).

That mob and new-born countries in the Maghreb had mistaken a Jew for an Israeli, and you do the same thing with an Arab you put at the same level with a Palestinian.


My family were not "Sephardic" immigrants we were refugees, we are Mizrahi Jews from Egypt. Not part of the Maghreb. During Nasser reign and the rise of Arab Nationalism (a large part the responsibility of the Mufti of Jerusalem) and after the state of Israel was declared, the Jews of Egypt were systematically persecuted. The example of my family is that one member had his apartment building blown up, was interned in a concentration camp for being a "zionist", he was 16. ALL of our property was taken and assets frozen. So we are not talking about Al Andalus we are talking the last 50 -60 years. From a population of 80,000 there are a total of 20 or 30 jews remaining in egypt. Iraq there are about 6 elderley remaining, Libya none, Morocco around 6,000 from a 350,000 population, Algeria none, Afghanistan none, Iran around 8,000 from a population of 100,000.

We didn't arrive in Israel with gold, for years the refugees, including my family, lived in tents in the desert or wooden huts. They didn't all move in to homes of Palestinians as is quite often the myth.[/QUOTE]


For your expulsion out of egypt you have my sympathy ,it never should have happend And i do hoppe this madnes will stop sooner then later
__________________
If it can`t be done with the Hammer, it`s not worth doing it

Last edited by cannut; 22.11.2012 at 14:43.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 22.11.2012, 14:46
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 982
Groaned at 249 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 2,158 Times in 997 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
I could tackle this point by point, but i don't have the patience right now, but since you asked so nicely i will respond.

The article points out the uneven playing field. Yes, over a hundred killed in gaza while israel suffered a measly loss in comparison.

That is entierly true, however, the article doesnt take into account Israel's interception system, and neither did Hamas. Hundreds of rockets fired into Israel over the past few days, and the low number of lost lives is due to their warning sirens, their anti missles, and the fortified rooms that are built into homes. Had the iron dome not been used, israel's death toll could easily be in the high hundreds right now.
Israel takes responsiblity to warn BOTH israelis and gazans that they are in danger. To say israelis dont need to fear death is absurd. Go visit israel and you can easily see it for yourself. You dont station guards and bag scanners outside of every public building if there werent a very real threat of death.

And on to the next point. They dont have fortified rooms in gaza. The civilians dont have where to hide. I question why is it that hamas who are the leading power in gaza, are not taking measures to protect their people? There are in fact underground bunkers in gaza. They are used to protect missiles. Not people. Perhaps instead of smuggling in missles, rockets, and warfare, hamas should use those same resources to ensure the safety of their people. Yet, still the responsiblity to protect falls completely on israels shoulders. When israel fails, israel takes the blame.

We have proof of israel dropping leaflets, knocking on targeted roofs, warnings via sms and tv, and now also phone calls. When there wasnt sufficient warning, then israel is blamed for killing innocents. In fact, israel was blamed for some deaths they werent responsible for. There are fingers pointing at hamas for some of these deaths. You can read this:
http://www.humanevents.com/2012/11/1...as-not-israel/
Apologies for the delay, i was busy this morning. Lets begin.

What you're saying is that the rockets are being fired and intercepted but the IDF is still justified in bombing (and killing) palestinian civilians. Whilst no one would argue about israels right to self defence, proportionality must be remembered. They launched a hundred rockets at you, knowing only a few would get through (the entire world knew about israel's Iron dome, it wasnt a particularly big secret). Do you then launch a hundred missiles back, knowing they arent protected and that every single one will probably kill innocents? Good justification. Your warning sirens probably scared a few pets too, perhaps you could launch a tomahawk at a palestinian school? Im sure the rockets will have damaged a tree, perhaps some Howitzer shelling would be appropriate? Fire begets fire. Whenever a higher power has abused a weaker one, history has shown that its people will only take so much before they retaliate. Rather then show the world their transgressions, you make it worse for yourselves. You want people to hate Hamas? Show them what they are doing, not what you are doing in response. Its hard to say Hamas is evil when you've just bombed and killed an entire family.

The threat of death is not the same as being powerless against it. You've missed the whole point (a pattern i'm beginning to notice here). If you, in israel, hear a missile warning, you have time to get to a shelter. By the time a palestinian knows a missile is on its way, its probably too late.

I find your point about building shelters to be, frankly, dissapointing. I thought you might know better. Israels blockade has limited the amount of building materials available. They cant build shelters because they dont have the concrete to do so, and that is due to the blockade. No one is denying their weapons are held in shelters, but whose fault is it they feel they need those weapons in the first place? Who breaks most of the ceasefires. The Huffington Post link in this thread should help. You cant on the one hand say that they shouldnt have these weapons, and then bomb the shit out them with heavy, long range, targetted artillery. If you want peace, then you, as the stronger power, need to prove it.

These poeple that are warned (which, incidentally you accept as proof that Israelis are targetting civilians) have nowhere to go. They are, essentially, told 'we're bombing your house in 5 minutes, we dont care what happens afterwards'. What do you expect these people to do? Theres only one thing they will do, and that is to take up arms against the force that destroyed their homes and families.

"We have proof of israel dropping leaflets, knocking on targeted roofs, warnings via sms and tv, and now also phone calls. When there wasnt sufficient warning, then israel is blamed for killing innocents"

Did you even read this before writing it. I'll capitalise the next bit so as to assert its importance:
WARNING PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO KILL THEM DOES NOT ABSOLVE YOU OF THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THEIR DEATH.

Incidentally, thanks for assuming i havent been to Israel. you have never met me, you dont know me, but just because our beliefs are different, you think you know where i have and have not been? Well done, you.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #91  
Old 22.11.2012, 15:45
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post

Whilst no one would argue about israels right to self defence, proportionality must be remembered. They launched a hundred rockets at you, knowing only a few would get through (the entire world knew about israel's Iron dome, it wasnt a particularly big secret). Do you then launch a hundred missiles back, knowing they arent protected and that every single one will probably kill innocents? Good justification.
Proportionality in war? As in only one country may attack Israel at any given time? Nonsense, Israel is a tiny country surrounded by enemies which don't want to negotiate, don't want a peace agreement and don't want to accept Israels right of existence. Very little it can do but demonstrate anyone who attacks it that it will hit harder, much harder.

Life is cheap in Palestine, Hamas knows it and uses it to its advantage, every civilian that gets killed only strenghtens its position, so they deliberate risk civilian lives so that they can parade a dead child around the street. Anyone who suggests there is an easy solution to the problem is fooling himself. A whole new, enlightened generation would have to grow up but that's not happening, even kids are taught to hate Israel.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #92  
Old 22.11.2012, 16:17
SemAms's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: im Ausland
Posts: 305
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 415 Times in 228 Posts
SemAms has an excellent reputationSemAms has an excellent reputationSemAms has an excellent reputationSemAms has an excellent reputation
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
Proportionality in war? As in only one country may attack Israel at any given time? Nonsense, Israel is a tiny country surrounded by enemies which don't want to negotiate, don't want a peace agreement and don't want to accept Israels right of existence. Very little it can do but demonstrate anyone who attacks it that it will hit harder, much harder.

Life is cheap in Palestine, Hamas knows it and uses it to its advantage, every civilian that gets killed only strenghtens its position, so they deliberate risk civilian lives so that they can parade a dead child around the street. Anyone who suggests there is an easy solution to the problem is fooling himself. A whole new, enlightened generation would have to grow up but that's not happening, even kids are taught to hate Israel.
I agree with most of what you say:
- life is not only cheap in Palestine but in most Muslim countries, just check any Muslim paper and most murders/accidents/bombings only make it to third page at best
- Israel's has a right to exist
- Most kids are thought to hate Jews (not just Israel) (Wonder whether it s much different on the Israeli side)

But nevertheless, I can hardly justify the killing of innocents during bombings (even when the main target is a terrorist). It just feels like killing hostages to get the bank robbers
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 22.11.2012, 16:22
PennyMama's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: zurich
Posts: 309
Groaned at 13 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 286 Times in 164 Posts
PennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of manyPennyMama has earned the respect of many
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Again, i do not have time to respond in depth. First of all i will beg your pardon for what you percieved to be an insult. I did not make any assumptions that you have not been to israel. I just meant to say it should be obvious to anyone who has.

Proportion? The missiles fired into israel ~1,000 (i can edit for more accuracy later). Those that fired into gaza from israel were a percent of that.

So you argue that gaza knew that israel had a defence system and that makes it more acceptable for them to shoot into civilian areas. I claim otherwise since they had the missiles stockpiled from before things got heated they must have been planning to use them. Hamas would have fired the same number of missiles had there not been an iron dome. That is if israel would have allowed it. Why do i make that assumtion? Because they are aiming for casualties.

Most israelis have less than a minutes warning to get into a shelter. Is that enough? Can you jump out of your shower and run down to your buildings cellar in less than a minute? Most people cant. Cities like sderot which are in closer range and face more constant threats have between 15-20 seconds to find a safe place. Dont give me "israelis have time to get to shelter" because there is nothing true about that statement. A bus exploded in tel aviv. Was that a mistake?

Like i said, they managed to dig tunnels to smuggle in building materials to make rockets. They spend time and resources building underground tunnels to get these materials in. They have enough concrete to make weapons. And please tell me why there is a blockade in the first place? If there were no blockade would the residents be building fortified shelters, or hoarding the materials for more bombs?

You come to interesting conclusions? Warning a person to take shelter does not mean they are a target. Itmeans they are in the vicinity of a target. Smuggling tunnels lead into homes. Just because israel decides to bomb that home doesnt mean the family was a target.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 22.11.2012, 16:34
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,622
Groaned at 579 Times in 487 Posts
Thanked 20,893 Times in 10,976 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
Apologies for the delay, i was busy this morning. Lets begin.

What you're saying is that the rockets are being fired and intercepted but the IDF is still justified in bombing (and killing) palestinian civilians. Whilst no one would argue about israels right to self defence, proportionality must be remembered. They launched a hundred rockets at you, knowing only a few would get through (the entire world knew about israel's Iron dome, it wasnt a particularly big secret). Do you then launch a hundred missiles back, knowing they arent protected and that every single one will probably kill innocents? Good justification. Your warning sirens probably scared a few pets too, perhaps you could launch a tomahawk at a palestinian school? Im sure the rockets will have damaged a tree, perhaps some Howitzer shelling would be appropriate? Fire begets fire. Whenever a higher power has abused a weaker one, history has shown that its people will only take so much before they retaliate. Rather then show the world their transgressions, you make it worse for yourselves. You want people to hate Hamas? Show them what they are doing, not what you are doing in response. Its hard to say Hamas is evil when you've just bombed and killed an entire family.

The threat of death is not the same as being powerless against it. You've missed the whole point (a pattern i'm beginning to notice here). If you, in israel, hear a missile warning, you have time to get to a shelter. By the time a palestinian knows a missile is on its way, its probably too late.

I find your point about building shelters to be, frankly, dissapointing. I thought you might know better. Israels blockade has limited the amount of building materials available. They cant build shelters because they dont have the concrete to do so, and that is due to the blockade. No one is denying their weapons are held in shelters, but whose fault is it they feel they need those weapons in the first place? Who breaks most of the ceasefires. The Huffington Post link in this thread should help. You cant on the one hand say that they shouldnt have these weapons, and then bomb the shit out them with heavy, long range, targetted artillery. If you want peace, then you, as the stronger power, need to prove it.

These poeple that are warned (which, incidentally you accept as proof that Israelis are targetting civilians) have nowhere to go. They are, essentially, told 'we're bombing your house in 5 minutes, we dont care what happens afterwards'. What do you expect these people to do? Theres only one thing they will do, and that is to take up arms against the force that destroyed their homes and families.

"We have proof of israel dropping leaflets, knocking on targeted roofs, warnings via sms and tv, and now also phone calls. When there wasnt sufficient warning, then israel is blamed for killing innocents"

Did you even read this before writing it. I'll capitalise the next bit so as to assert its importance:
WARNING PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO KILL THEM DOES NOT ABSOLVE YOU OF THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THEIR DEATH.

Incidentally, thanks for assuming i havent been to Israel. you have never met me, you dont know me, but just because our beliefs are different, you think you know where i have and have not been? Well done, you.

About "Theres only one thing they will do, and that is to take up arms against the force that destroyed their homes and families."

Equally true on the Israeli side so sadly this thing will never end until there is a long & proper ceasefire & some sensible negotiations.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 22.11.2012, 16:46
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 34
Groaned at 30 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 49 Times in 21 Posts
Caramelized has annoyed a few people around hereCaramelized has annoyed a few people around hereCaramelized has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Crisis in Gaza



in reply to
spot the difference
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 22.11.2012, 16:55
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,622
Groaned at 579 Times in 487 Posts
Thanked 20,893 Times in 10,976 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post

in reply to spot the difference
People are dying on both sides & we are sitting in our armchairs discussing who has the most blood thirsty children?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #97  
Old 22.11.2012, 18:06
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: schaffhausen
Posts: 50
Groaned at 115 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 84 Times in 52 Posts
ilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthy
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Congrats!! The one and only pic! The same one that was posted in the other thread. So easy!!You lack originality I must say.


Quote:
View Post


in reply to
spot the difference
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 22.11.2012, 19:16
yjt yjt is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 586
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 601 Times in 261 Posts
yjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

Quote:
View Post
Congrats!! The one and only pic! The same one that was posted in the other thread. So easy!!You lack originality I must say.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 22.11.2012, 19:23
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: schaffhausen
Posts: 50
Groaned at 115 Times in 36 Posts
Thanked 84 Times in 52 Posts
ilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthyilovemiami is considered unworthy
Re: Crisis in Gaza

These are orthodox jews, which are a minority in Israel and I don't support them. Extremists are everywhere, however, in Palestine, this is a majority. Take a look at this:
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 22.11.2012, 19:34
yjt yjt is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Aargau
Posts: 586
Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts
Thanked 601 Times in 261 Posts
yjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond reputeyjt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Crisis in Gaza

What exactly is your point?

I neither sympathize with Hamas or the Israeli military. I'm prepared to say that neither side are totally innocent and the lives of both Palestinians and Israelis are for me just as precious and their deaths just as tragic.

What exactly are you trying to achieve with these photos?

Personally I agree with Marton's previous post but I don't find anyone in this conflict has any right to take the moral high ground.

I am sure for any picture depicting Palestinians one is able to find one showing the Jews being just as bad. To prove my point.



Plus those guns will be real unlike the belt the kid is wearing. Anyway that'll be my last photo...Carry on living in your black and white world


Edit: And your original comment to the photo above was 'At least they don't have weapons in their hands.'
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gaza Shopping Mall - Powerlauer International affairs/politics 4 22.07.2010 08:46
Crisis in Thailand simon_ch International affairs/politics 101 07.06.2010 19:24


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:09.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0