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  #101  
Old 22.11.2012, 19:38
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

Orthodox, minority.

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What exactly is your point?

I neither sympathize with Hamas or the Israeli military. I'm prepared to say that neither side are totally innocent and the lives of both Palestinians and Israelis are for me just as precious and their deaths just as tragic.

What exactly are you trying to achieve with these photos?

Personally I agree with Marton's previous post but I don't find anyone in this conflict has any right to take the moral high ground.

I am sure for any picture depicting Palestinians one is able to find one showing the Jews being just as bad. To prove my point.



Plus those guns will be real unlike the belt the kid is wearing. Anyway that'll be my last photo...Carry on living in your black and white world


Edit: And your original comment to the photo above was 'At least they don't have weapons in their hands.'
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  #102  
Old 22.11.2012, 19:51
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Orthodox, minority.
That's the point I'm making. You've been repeatedly showing pictures of Palestinian children with weapons and we're expected to draw the conclusions that all Palestinians are raised for.

I show you pictures of Jewish children and you say we should just ignore them as they're a minority. I agree with you that they're a minority. I haven't been to Gaza so I can't say how many of them there are extremists but have you?

What I'm confident in though is that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians and Israelis want to live in Peace. Would you say the same?
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  #103  
Old 22.11.2012, 22:26
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

Dear YJT

Even though I agree with your post I think the pictures you posted it utterly pathetic !

One picture is Hamas kids being incited to terrorism whilst the other is a bunch of jewish kids inspecting a guy like any other normal or HEALTHY western kid would do !!

And Im sure you agree with me too !!
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  #104  
Old 22.11.2012, 23:22
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Dear YJT

Even though I agree with your post I think the pictures you posted it utterly pathetic !

One picture is Hamas kids being incited to terrorism whilst the other is a bunch of jewish kids inspecting a guy like any other normal or HEALTHY western kid would do !!

And Im sure you agree with me too !!
I would partly agree with you. I fully agree the picture of the Hamas people is appalling. I also agree that in some western countries, especially in Switzerland, it would be normal for children to check out guns. I would argue though that no healthy western young children should be anywhere machine guns but that's just my opinion.

I wasn't aiming to take part in this 'who's kids are the most evil' contest but personally I find my first photo which I posted of children having a laugh on a tank threatening to flatten Gaza at least comparable to some kids riding in a car containing a gun. In some western countries it is also normal to carry guns in their cars as well. Even Miami had to play that one down by calling them a minority.

The second one I posted wasn't an attempt to take part in the mentioned contest. Yes my photo could be played down in the way you did. A Palestinian would argue look those Israelis are even teaching their children how to shoot on us. He would also play down the suicide bomber one as a bit of show and the kids don't really know what it means anyway. The point I was trying to make is that you can see what you want in photos and I find them totally irrelevant in here anyway as nobody should generalise a whole nation based on a few photos of a couple of people. What I take issue with is people of either side trying to depict themselves as lambs and try to show the other side up as monsters. Neither is true.
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  #105  
Old 23.11.2012, 20:16
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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in reply to
spot the difference
Wonder if the blonde one is old enough to sign my missile?
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  #106  
Old 23.11.2012, 20:36
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Wonder if the blonde one is old enough to sign my missile?
But those things are howitzer grenade 155 mm me thinks

Last edited by cannut; 23.11.2012 at 22:12.
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  #107  
Old 28.11.2012, 11:07
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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About "Theres only one thing they will do, and that is to take up arms against the force that destroyed their homes and families."

Equally true on the Israeli side so sadly this thing will never end until there is a long & proper ceasefire & some sensible negotiations.
So now is the test. Israel claims open borders will bring more terror, and gaza claims the terror is from closed borders. So lets see what happens now? More attacks on israel, or less?

Now that the border restrictions are eased, will it be used to bring in goods for the defensive or for the offensive?

So far the situation doesn't look too promising:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wa...=0&item=162519

Last edited by PennyMama; 28.11.2012 at 11:08. Reason: spelling
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  #108  
Old 28.11.2012, 13:58
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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So now is the test. Israel claims open borders will bring more terror, and gaza claims the terror is from closed borders. So lets see what happens now? More attacks on israel, or less?

Now that the border restrictions are eased, will it be used to bring in goods for the defensive or for the offensive?

So far the situation doesn't look too promising:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wa...=0&item=162519
BUT the real topic is that the closed borders make the economic plight of the Gaza Territory worse, which means points for the extremists. Open borders and normal trade means better economic conditions in the Gaza Territory and points for the Ramallah government of Mr Abbas.

To make conclusions about more or less terror is rubbish, as terror does NOT depend on realities

More important right now is the developments in Egypt
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  #109  
Old 28.11.2012, 14:12
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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So now is the test. Israel claims open borders will bring more terror, and gaza claims the terror is from closed borders. So lets see what happens now? More attacks on israel, or less?

Now that the border restrictions are eased, will it be used to bring in goods for the defensive or for the offensive?

So far the situation doesn't look too promising:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wa...=0&item=162519
you do realize that the source you're referencing here is on the absolute fringes of the universe, even by standards in the Middle East?

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  #110  
Old 28.11.2012, 14:28
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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More important right now is the developments in Egypt
...and Syria.
Somehow, the daily slaughter of civilians going there has dropped from the headlines.
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  #111  
Old 28.11.2012, 14:33
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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What I'm confident in though is that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians and Israelis want to live in Peace. Would you say the same?
No, from all I know I would disagree. Theoretically under different circumstances: perhaps. Currently, no.

Live in peace by unilaterally stopping all violence under current political regime?
Very unlikely, has not happened yet to my knowledge without major concessions (release of prisoners, opening of borders, trade)

Live in peace by bilaterally stopping all violence under current political regime?
No, all sources, including from Palestine itself, seem to indicate otherwise: they insist that there will be no peace with Isreal as an "occupying force". A majority of Palestinians still (and increasingly) support the rocket launches.

Live in peace by bilaterally stopping all violence with a two-state solution?
Maybe, currently only a minority of Palestinians accept Israels right of existance, accepting it would be seen as a major concession and may not be supported by a large part of the population.

I think the problem with such statements is that we like to portray Palestine in a way that suits us, while ignoring the political reality on the ground. When we hear extreme political statements from Hamas, we simply dismiss it as extremists talking which suppress the population, but ignore the political reality of Hamas, which is desperately trying to keep credibility in the population, as they are seen as too moderate. Just look at the statements they made after the ceasefire, they really tried to make it look like they got major concessions and a victory for Hamas. Hamas are not militants in the Palestinian political landscape, they are moderates - as absurd as that may seem to outside observers - which have to defend their credibility against young, more extreme forces.
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  #112  
Old 28.11.2012, 16:24
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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What I'm confident in though is that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians and Israelis want to live in Peace. Would you say the same?
No, from all I know I would disagree.
...


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...
Live in peace by bilaterally stopping all violence with a two-state solution?
Maybe, currently only a minority of Palestinians accept Israels right of existance, accepting it would be seen as a major concession and may not be supported by a large part of the population.

I think the problem with such statements is that we like to portray Palestine in a way that suits us, while ignoring the political reality on the ground. When we hear extreme political statements from Hamas, we simply dismiss it as extremists talking which suppress the population, but ignore the political reality of Hamas, which is desperately trying to keep credibility in the population, as they are seen as too moderate. Just look at the statements they made after the ceasefire, they really tried to make it look like they got major concessions and a victory for Hamas. Hamas are not militants in the Palestinian political landscape, they are moderates - as absurd as that may seem to outside observers - which have to defend their credibility against young, more extreme forces.
Not untrue.

However, Israel used to have in its hands and keeps on having the key for a solution of that increasing degree of de-institutionalization and further spin in radicalism.

When alFatah accepted Israel not only as a reality but also as a State, Israel did everything to weaken Fatah, always in a logic of "divide et impera". Same strategy with Hamas. With, as a result, a fragmentation of power and a reality that develops its own logic not inside but outside of already weak Palestinian institutions. It's not very credible complaining the actual situation particularly with regard to Gaza, having lacked for decades of a real and sincere policy in sustaining moderate forces inside the Palestinian politics, giving them a chance to build up something what could be called a state, when it was in Israel's power and interest of doing so.

What did one expect would happen in Gaza after an Israeli withdraw? That it could become a new Denmark overnight? This is neither fair nor realistic.


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So now is the test. Israel claims open borders will bring more terror, and gaza claims the terror is from closed borders.
...
Both is right, unfortunately.

However, Israel cannot win that conflict by force, which is a reality it still has to accept. So either Israel changes its policy with regard to Hamas or it will one day lose the conflict. Imho this is not so difficult to understand.
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  #113  
Old 28.11.2012, 17:52
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Not untrue.

However, Israel used to have in its hands and keeps on having the key for a solution of that increasing degree of de-institutionalization and further spin in radicalism.
Agree to a degree only. Isreal probably could, and should have increased efforts to push for a two state solution, but being attacked by all its neighbours, with uprisings from Palestine probably didn't help either... Israel is rightly seen as an occupying force, as breaking international law, all true. But what do you want it to do? It is still surrounded by enemies that do not acknowledge its right of existance.. hence my opposition to overly simplified positions such as "if only the political leaders really wanted peace...." - against the will of their population? not very likely.
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  #114  
Old 28.11.2012, 18:40
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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...and Syria.
Somehow, the daily slaughter of civilians going there has dropped from the headlines.
News from Cairo sell better, and provide nicer film-sequences. And lots of Western correspondents sit in Cairo, but not so many in Damascus.

You may add that the 85 mio. people country Egypt is a heavy-weight while 20,8 mio. Syria is not. Egypt has a sizeable industry, Cairo has the HQ of the Arab League and the Suez Canal, and Cairo is where the Arab film industry is located.

With the other large Arab countries, Morocco and Algeria (each 33 mio.), also being located in North Africa, the Arab World to some 75% takes place in North Africa anyway

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  #115  
Old 28.11.2012, 19:47
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Agree to a degree only. Isreal probably could, and should have increased efforts to push for a two state solution, but being attacked by all its neighbours, with uprisings from Palestine probably didn't help either... Israel is rightly seen as an occupying force, as breaking international law, all true. But what do you want it to do? It is still surrounded by enemies that do not acknowledge its right of existance.. hence my opposition to overly simplified positions such as "if only the political leaders really wanted peace...." - against the will of their population? not very likely.
Partly true. Israel has never officially accepted the Arab Peace Initiative (neither did Hamas).

I don't think that the current Israeli leaders and Palestinians leaders (certainly not Hamas - which is a terror organisation, neither Abu Abas) are brave enough to take hard decisions on the way to peace.
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  #116  
Old 28.11.2012, 20:14
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Partly true. Israel has never officially accepted the Arab Peace Initiative (neither did Hamas).

I don't think that the current Israeli leaders and Palestinians leaders (certainly not Hamas - which is a Elected organisation, neither Abu Abas) are brave enough to take hard decisions on the way to peace.
Key word
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  #117  
Old 28.11.2012, 21:27
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Key word

I would not call the Hamas Brutal takeover of the Gaza Strip which was accompanied by murdering Fatah members and imprisonment of many others - a total democratic procedure...
They actually threw Fatah supporters from windows of houses to their death.
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  #118  
Old 28.11.2012, 22:01
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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...
Isreal probably could, and should have increased efforts to push for a two state solution, ...
...
... if it wanted to abandon the one state idea (which would have as a result civil rights to all resident Palestinians and Jews in a minority), that should have been obvious. Oddly it was not, at least not to Israel.


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...
... but being attacked by all its neighbours, ...
...
This is exaggerated, imho. There's no open war from more than one front (not counting the inner one) for decades. There are many many much more violent places in the world than Israel or Palestine.



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...
Israel is rightly seen as an occupying force, ...
...
I challenge that. If a person is honest, he must admit that a Palestinian Arab Israeli lives far better than in any other "brotherly" country,

and there is no such huge difference between Israeli and Hamas/PLO admin/occupation of the rest of the country.

And that's exactly what I wish Israel can do, with regard to

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...
But what do you want it to do? It is still surrounded by enemies that do not acknowledge its right of existance.. ...
...
It could once and for all sincerely try to take the Palestinians on its side, accepting the idea of an entity and a partner on +- equal eyesight, instead of destabilizing exactly that partner one has to relate to and to communicate with somehow, as long as one does not wish to launch some nukes in the own houseyard. Making a point that the Arab "brothers" aren't neither brothers nor friends, at least as long as they are dictatorships. I want people that say the truth and face reality (e.g. like the late Sharon who in fact spoke about an "occupation").


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...
Hamas - which is a terror organisation, ...
...
And I expect realism, fairness and honesty also in terms of the "terrorism debate". Apart that in the eyes of bombed persons there is no such difference between a military assault i.e. a human target and a bus bomb (besides that IDF caused much higher casualties than so-called and/or real terrorists ever could),

Irgun - one of IDF's predecessors - used to adopt the same identical means that Hamas (or even more radical forces without any control) do use now. Yes, one can call them "terrorism" with some good reason, but please, the one is/was like the other, the only difference is that Hamas caused far less victims for now.

This is a slice of honesty missing in the whole cake to start with in the first place. And it's Israel's task to change that, as only Israel is in a position of doing so.

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  #119  
Old 29.11.2012, 02:02
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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only partially, as Mahmoud Abbas is the elected PRESIDENT of Palestine
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  #120  
Old 29.11.2012, 12:59
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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... if it wanted to abandon the one state idea (which would have as a result civil rights to all resident Palestinians and Jews in a minority), that should have been obvious. Oddly it was not, at least not to Israel.




This is exaggerated, imho. There's no open war from more than one front (not counting the inner one) for decades. There are many many much more violent places in the world than Israel or Palestine.





I challenge that. If a person is honest, he must admit that a Palestinian Arab Israeli lives far better than in any other "brotherly" country,

and there is no such huge difference between Israeli and Hamas/PLO admin/occupation of the rest of the country.

And that's exactly what I wish Israel can do, with regard to



It could once and for all sincerely try to take the Palestinians on its side, accepting the idea of an entity and a partner on +- equal eyesight, instead of destabilizing exactly that partner one has to relate to and to communicate with somehow, as long as one does not wish to launch some nukes in the own houseyard. Making a point that the Arab "brothers" aren't neither brothers nor friends, at least as long as they are dictatorships. I want people that say the truth and face reality (e.g. like the late Sharon who in fact spoke about an "occupation").




And I expect realism, fairness and honesty also in terms of the "terrorism debate". Apart that in the eyes of bombed persons there is no such difference between a military assault i.e. a human target and a bus bomb (besides that IDF caused much higher casualties than so-called and/or real terrorists ever could),

Irgun - one of IDF's predecessors - used to adopt the same identical means that Hamas (or even more radical forces without any control) do use now. Yes, one can call them "terrorism" with some good reason, but please, the one is/was like the other, the only difference is that Hamas caused far less victims for now.

This is a slice of honesty missing in the whole cake to start with in the first place. And it's Israel's task to change that, as only Israel is in a position of doing so.
About "the only difference is that Hamas caused far less victims for now." but is that by choice? When you fire rockets into a neighbouring country then it is random chance whether you kill few or many?

About "besides that IDF caused much higher casualties than so-called and/or real terrorists ever could"
If you take World Trade Center as an example, terrorists can kill many people.
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