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  #141  
Old 30.11.2012, 03:01
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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How can Israel be occupying, Palestine was never an autonomous state. Israel captured the territories from Jordan (Judea and Samaria) and Egypt (Gaza) in the 67 war both had occupied those regions after the war of 48, why then are they not classed as Occupiers?. Israel didn't capture and does not occupy "Palestine". Call it disputed territories if you like but Occupation is inaccurate.

The Palestinians rejected the 1947 UN Partition plan that was proposed so they did not have a state, and the arabs lost the war of 1948 after they tried to wipe us out.

No, Israel captured territories which in the UN partition plan of 1947 were parts of Palestine. The West Bank and East Jerusalem indeed were taken over by Jordan, but Gaza was NEVER taken over by Egypt. And whatever, it was ARAB territories occupied by a NON-Arab occupier. Jordan, Palestine, Egypt are parts of the ARAB WORLD, and Israel in 1967 DID OCCUPY Arab lands.

Yes, all the Arab states plus the Palestinians rejected the UN partition plan which was regarded as too favourable to the Jews in Palestine, giving most of all useful land to the Jews.

The way in which the STATE OF ISRAEL was declared in fact was a UNILATERAL DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE and was clearly in rejection of the UN-plan.

You may keep in mind that it only were King Abdullah-I, King Talal and King Hussein of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan who were always ready and open for compromise with the Jews in Palestine
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  #142  
Old 30.11.2012, 03:19
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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So you agree Israel, like Canada, has a right to exist in its cureent form but that Israel, like Canada, has a history of poor treatment of some of it's indigenous peoples?
within the 1947 borders ,absolute Canada has in the past , treatet the natives poorley, absolute

Last edited by cannut; 30.11.2012 at 03:31.
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  #143  
Old 30.11.2012, 03:25
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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wiped them out....interesting comment.

Hardly, and what a blinkered view you have. 1.6 million live inside Israel. from a population of 150,000 arabs which chose to remain after the 48 war.

4.6 million "refugees" according to UNWRA are now, but any other refugee on the planet in any other country can only be classed as a refugee if they were the person displaced. Refugee status for a Palestinian seems to be an inheritance.

Hardly what you call wiping out.
So sorry Sir, but this is demagogery. You compare the Jewish population of "Israel proper" with the number of Arabs in Palestine who were ready to live inside the new State of Israel. AND you by the 4,6 mio UNRWA refugees ignore that whomever is stateless and whose grandparents or parents were driven out of their homeland by international law is a refugee.

Right you may be in so far as it is strange to see that fairly wealthy Palestinian businessmen and professionals (in many fields) between Muscat and London "enjoy" the "refugee status"

I do not feel any pity for your plight, as you simply have to realize
A) that the times when 99% of Western Europe sided with Israel is a thing of the past (1956 + 1967)
B) that the generation of Continental Europeans who felt guilty towards the Jews and were grateful that the Arabs had to pay the bill, so that nobody gave the Jews the right to establish "the national homeland of the Jewish people" in Bavaria is gradually dying out
the Europeans who were in favour of "the Jewish country from the Nile to the Euphrate" "the unsinkable aircraft carrier of the West in the Middle East"
C) that you apparently do NOT own a world atlas, and so faill to see that the State of Israel sits on the land-bridge connecting the two wings of the Arab World, which means Maghreb and Mashreek ---- in case you say you do not care about this it is to be stated that the Jews in Palestine simply profited of the weakness of the area and of their vastly superior educational and professional capabilities

That troops of Israeli diplomats and ambassadors for all the decades repeated and repeated the same rethorics just in the way of Buddhist prayer mills or in the way of the master of propaganda, Mr Göbbels, did and does not make matters any better !
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  #144  
Old 30.11.2012, 13:06
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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....forget the torah honey!! Didn't have a lot of choice now did we.
If torah is to be forgotten then I am afraid your claim that GOD gave it to you (from torah) has to be forgotten as well.

God sent you in to exile for disobedience and "requested" you not to come back until Messiah comes and restores the glory of Israel but you chose to disobey HIM again by returning and occupying so lets see ...

Dont be angry have a good weekend.
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  #145  
Old 30.11.2012, 13:09
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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within the 1947 borders ,absolute Canada has in the past , treatet the natives poorley, absolute
So Palestinians didn't live within the 1947 borders pre-1947? What right has Israel got to exist at all - all the land was stolen. Just like Canada. (or, you know, the USA, Mexico etc etc). I don't understand - if all the land was stolen then what does it matter when it was stolen?
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  #146  
Old 30.11.2012, 13:42
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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So Palestinians didn't live within the 1947 borders pre-1947? What right has Israel got to exist at all - all the land was stolen. Just like Canada. (or, you know, the USA, Mexico etc etc). I don't understand - if all the land was stolen then what does it matter when it was stolen?
Right on ! Israel lives on stolen land .Stolen by USA Canada etc,true the UN , and gave it to the jews .Now all you have to do is negotiate the peaceful coexistens whit the arabs. Just as Canada did Read the zionists congress 1 to 10,that was herzels idea
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  #147  
Old 30.11.2012, 19:22
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

After palestinians won non state recognition in UN israel ( to punish their legal move) has ordered 3000 new homes on occupied lands which again flys in the face of international law.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...an-UN-bid.html

".. it effectively cuts the occupied West Bank in two, making the creation of a viable Palestinian state highly problematic..".

It shows quite clearly , how much peace loving zionists are....Shame on the international community !!
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  #148  
Old 30.11.2012, 19:53
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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So Palestinians didn't live within the 1947 borders pre-1947? What right has Israel got to exist at all - all the land was stolen. Just like Canada. (or, you know, the USA, Mexico etc etc). I don't understand - if all the land was stolen then what does it matter when it was stolen?
Everybody stole the land from somebody else at some point. Before the ancestors of the Palestians took it, there were Jews living there. Most of Europe was stolen from the Neanderthals. All the evil colonisers came out of Africa. Where are you going to stop?
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  #149  
Old 30.11.2012, 20:43
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Everybody stole the land from somebody else at some point. Before the ancestors of the Palestians took it, there were Jews living there. Most of Europe was stolen from the Neanderthals. All the evil colonisers came out of Africa. Where are you going to stop?
Yup, exactly. Now a question for you: If all land, every little bit of it, was stolen from someone (you can't earn land after all) then why is there so much talk about Israel? Isn't it about the same age as Jordan, Syria, Iraq? Aren't the leaders of these countries artificial, imported from elsewhere? Why so much chat about Israel?

Last edited by chapps; 30.11.2012 at 21:26.
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  #150  
Old 30.11.2012, 20:45
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Yup, exactly. Now a question for you: If all land, every little bit of it, was stolen from someone (you can't earn land after all) then why is there so much talk about Israel? Isn't it about the same age as Jordan, Syria, Iraq? Aren't the leaders of these countries artificial, imported for elsewhere? Why so much chat about Israel?
I'm not contradicting that.

A random bunch of people can suddenly become a nation when they get a flag and an army.
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  #151  
Old 30.11.2012, 20:53
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I'm not contradicting that.

A random bunch of people can suddenly become a nation when they get a flag and an army.
They can become a state, sure enough. Becoming a nation is much tougher. I'm just interested in speculation as to why Israel is always the hot topic rather than for example China/Tibet, Russia/Chechnya, Indonesia/East Timor etc etc.

I don't want to call all these people plain old anti-semites so I'm sort of begging for something, anything that'll explain these giant threads on Israel and the deafening silence on China and Tibet where far more people have died and there have been far more human rights abuses in the latter.
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  #152  
Old 30.11.2012, 21:09
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Yup, exactly. Now a question for you: If all land, every little bit of it, was stolen from someone (you can't earn land after all) then why is there so much talk about Israel? Isn't it about the same age as Jordan, Syria, Iraq? Aren't the leaders of these countries artificial, imported for elsewhere? Why so much chat about Israel?
Now I get it Cant wait till someone steals it from israel
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  #153  
Old 30.11.2012, 21:20
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Now I get it Cant wait till someone steals it from israel
So you hate Israel then? Cause it's full of Jews, right?
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  #154  
Old 30.11.2012, 21:50
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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So you hate Israel then? Cause it's full of Jews, right?
Your nuts
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  #155  
Old 30.11.2012, 21:54
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Your nuts
True, but you're not explaining yourself clearly enough. Why can't you wait until someone steals Israel's land? From where does this eagerness come?
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  #156  
Old 30.11.2012, 22:15
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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They can become a state, sure enough. Becoming a nation is much tougher. I'm just interested in speculation as to why Israel is always the hot topic rather than for example China/Tibet, Russia/Chechnya, Indonesia/East Timor etc etc.

I don't want to call all these people plain old anti-semites so I'm sort of begging for something, anything that'll explain these giant threads on Israel and the deafening silence on China and Tibet where far more people have died and there have been far more human rights abuses in the latter.
Probably because nobody is prepared to argue the Chinese side of the Tibet discussion. You know. Buddhist monks are so immensely likeable, so wise, so cuddly even, that nobody can imagine they are in any way to blame. Ditto for semi-naked girls in grass skirts dancing in the jungles of East Timor. It's all too obvious who's good and who's evil that nobody will argue otherwise. They'll somehow have to fool themselves that the China we are trading with and where we're getting all the cheap stuff from is somehow a different China than the one doing all these nasty things in Tibet, but we can manage that somehow. But both Jews and Muslims are "controversial" in our age so when they start having a go at one another you get the xenophobes siding with the side they hate a bit less and the anti-imperialists and the lefties and the righties and the religious folks and all the other -ies banging on their own drums about who's more wrong and who's most wrong -even though most of them have never been to Israel and haven't a clue about reality there.
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  #157  
Old 01.12.2012, 12:18
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Now I get it Cant wait till someone steals it from israel


Well the land that the Arabs stole from the Jews who were kicked out of Arab lands and Muslims over the last 60 years equates to more than the entire landmass of Israel and the west bank!

As I said before, 50% of the Israeli population is from North African and other Muslim countries. out of 860,000 Jewish refugees 600,000 went to Israel. Talk about ethnic cleansing, check the Jewish population of Muslim countries now..........
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  #158  
Old 01.12.2012, 15:38
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Well the land that the Arabs stole from the Jews who were kicked out of Arab lands and Muslims over the last 60 years equates to more than the entire landmass of Israel and the west bank!

As I said before, 50% of the Israeli population is from North African and other Muslim countries. out of 860,000 Jewish refugees 600,000 went to Israel. Talk about ethnic cleansing, check the Jewish population of Muslim countries now..........
Problem again is that as it seems a big part of that sephardic immigrants and their sons are still traumatized about what you describe (correctly),

what I don't understand is how could anybody be so stupid to mistake Maghrebinians or people from Mashreq outside Palestine with the Palestinians again.

Unfair and terrible error. And devastating in its result.

How could anybody blame the Palestinians of today for crimes committed by people of hundreds, if not thousands of km away from PA, of 50 years ago. This is really low level, sorry.
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Old 01.12.2012, 18:23
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

It is sort of futile to keep discussing who stole what from whom before most of us were born.

Nobody has yet invented a time machine so we could go back & change what was decided.

The only way forward is to recognize today's realities & to negotiate a solution.

Last edited by marton; 01.12.2012 at 18:32. Reason: Recently changed to Windows 8 & it keeps randomly changing some letters into Capitals
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Old 01.12.2012, 20:16
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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It is sort of futile to keep discussing who stole what from whom before most of us were born.

Nobody has yet invented a time machine so we could go back & change what was decided.

The only way forward is to recognize today's realities & to negotiate a solution.
Thank you for coming out and saying this. These discussions always seem to deteriote into who was there first. It is irrelevant especially since both jews and arabs lived on the land before it became the state of israel. The only way forward is to find a solution for the future and that means not dwelling on the past.
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